Donal pointed out this comment by Elspeth:
Most people (men and women) have unrealistic expectations, about themselves, about what they are worth, about what they should be able to have. And those who know they can’t have what they want will go without. Especially men. I’ve heard a couple of young men actually say that.
He then defended those with reasonable, but possibly unrealistic requirements. (Read his post for definitions).
I’m going to go farther: as a man you should have unrealistic requirements for marriage. I’ve created my list for marriage and it’s reasonable, but possibly not realistic.
Based on previous analyses only about 40% of women are even worth considering for marriage looks-wise (ie. are not fat or actively ugly) and only about 30% of women would be in the 0-2 sexual partners category (although, that’s a bit higher if you go younger) and less than half have not had a one-night stand. Throw on top of that that you should almost never* marry a woman over 30 and be wary of those over 25, and your pickings are getting slim. That’s not even considering the much more important (for marriage) aspects of personality and inner beauty.
we can estimate that only about a fifth of eligible women would be even worth considering marrying. If we then look towards such things as religion, shared values, mutual compatibility, personality, and the like, the percentage of women that would make a decent wife for any particular man is shockingly low. (The only reprieve is a man only needs one reciprocating girl to meet those requirements).
If only 20% of women are worthy wives, then that means that 80% of men are not going to be able to find a worthy wife. Now, it should be noted that most men won’t meet the requirements a worthy wife should have and many men will choose unworthy wives, but still, if even a quarter of men are waiting for worthy wives that means that 20% of those men are simply going to have to do without.
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It is better to live in a corner of the housetop
than in a house shared with a quarrelsome wife. (Proverbs 25:24 ESV)
While a good marriage can be a great blessing, the consequences of choosing an unworthy wife are huge.
I remember reading somewhere (I can’t find the link) that 70% of marriages either end in divorce or perpetual unhappiness, which means that only 30% of marriages end up being happy and healthy. (That’s pretty close to my estimation that only 20% of women who are worthy wives, is it not?)
There is a 40% chance the marriage will end in divorce, the odds of which are strongly effected by how worthy the wife is. The cost of an average divorce to a man is about $150,000, the price of a smaller house. (This does not include child support, which will run an average man a pretty penny as well). The emotional costs of divorce are also huge: it is better to be single than divorced.
But even if the family stays together, there’s a chance the marriage will be miserable. Number I’ve read range all over the place. This study shows that 97% of marriages are ‘very’ or ‘pretty’ happy with their marriage, while this one shows 80% are satisfied with their relationship. I’ve seen lots of other numbers bandied around of anywhere from 20-60%, but most of these did not seem supported by anything. 80% satisfaction sounds right, which means 20% of marriages not ending in divorce are unhappy.
So, there’s a 50-70% chance that a marriage will be unhappy or end in divorce. If a man chooses a wife wrong, he will end up miserable.
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Men should have unrealistic (but no unreasonable) requirements for marriage. IF only a fifth of women display the qualities that make a good wife, not all men will be able to find a good wife. Going without is much superior to entering a marriage that will end in divorce or misery.
So hold those requirements high and be unrealistic if necessary to so.
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Before the accusations of misogyny start flying, know that I also advocate women demanding more from their relationships. Women should also hold high requirements for marriage and relationships.
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* I have talked with one girl approaching 30 whom, had circumstances been different, I may have considered, but she had been engaged in her mid-20s then the guy calling it off because she wouldn’t have sex with him until marriage. There are not many women out there with that level of virtue, but every rule has an exception.
“(The only reprieve is a man only needs one reciprocating girl to meet those requirements).”
Looks at my moniker.
Yeah, that’s reprieve doesn’t apply to me.
Anyway, more to the point, Statistics are moot. People, men especially, drive how their relationship is.
I doubt you’d allow yourself to be in a relationship you where merely satisfied with, and by virtue of clear expectations would make yourself and her be in a ‘happy’ or better level relationship. (Start with happy and improve from there over the decades).
As for your list, I’d say forget about her emotional volatility level. That’s something that is either wholly hormonal that you have to weather with any woman, or wholly trained that you can shut down entirely depending on it’s origin. You’ll never train out hormonal volatility and you’ll easily shut down disruptive, argumentative volatility. So don’t worry about it on your list.
In general don’t put any ‘trainables’ on your list if you count yourself a competent man who can influence her, and you should count yourself as such.
I’d say your most important are Christian, Virginile (perhaps not virgin per se, but ideally so as you said) age, and basic demeanour.
Health and attractiveness is trainable. With pregnancy you will have to be her self-discipline at times even if you start with good health.
Intelligence is trainable, though it is VERY good if she has a good philosophical basis on her own. For me this is where a good father-in-law came a lot, he’s a damn smart man and a lot of his good ideas got into her head at a young age.
I think being maternal is a natrual, not so trainable characteristic, and yeah, you’re right that it’s vital.
I mean no disrespect by dissecting your list. I just want to point out that women are quite moldable when they’re in love with a man that knows how to lead, so focus more on the ‘inherent’ things than the ‘can be taught things’.
Anyway, good luck finding someone of marriageable quality. It’s been 10 years since I found someone on that level last, it’s a blessing from God himself to find a good woman. Hope you find her.
….women are quite moldable when they’re in love with a man that knows how to lead….
This is very true.
@ FN
Good post. Also, please check the email listed on your about page when you get a chance.
“It is better that you should not vow than that you should vow and not pay.”
Ecclesiastes 5:5
A man is in heaven if he can find 80% of what he wants but women want 100%, which ain’t gonna happen. Think the Brothers Grimm story, King Roughbeard. No man was good enough for her.
@ prariepolyguy
“Health and attractiveness is trainable.”
This is true, but doesn’t work that way in reality. I’ve initiating dating many times with women who claim to want to get into fitness and nutrition. In the long run, they peter out and don’t end up keeping it as a habit in the long run.
Women have to be motivated before hand to learn about it and want to do it themselves.
It’s like saying Christian women are trainable to read Scripture every day and pray. Well, yes, they are… but it’s something they should already want to do and be doing.
I would go as far to say that all of important attributes that are moldable you want to already be there aside from the qualities of being a Christian. Health and fitness is important [to me] at least. For intelligence the drive to learn should already be there. Otherwise, that’s a moot point. Maternal the love of kids should already be there.
Basically, the fully developed status does not have to be there, BUT the drive to do it must be there already otherwise it will almost never happen.
Women will naturally follow the man they love in many areas, the “trainable” ones.
But … if you have very high standards, like DS does (not knocking you, DS, it’s fine for you to have your own standards), then it is riskier that some “trainables” may not be trained.
My GF converted to Orthodoxy about 18 months after we met. She was a typical megachurch evangelical when we met, and she looked and asked questions and listened, and followed, and became Orthodox. But, she was also looking for something more spiritually, so I was able to fit that. If a woman is not looking to be super-fit and toned and so on, then she probably won’t follow you in a relatively (to the general populace) strict regimen there. That’s where picking the woman correctly is key.
“It is better to dwell in the wilderness, than with a contentious and angry woman.” Proverb 21:19.
I always preferred that one to the rooftop, the image is more stark. Better to be alone in the wilds where you are considerably more vulnerable than being on the roof.
Not all women are moldable. The idea that any woman is if the man is alpha enough isn’t true either, unless by alpha, you mean willing to break several laws to do it and even then there are lots of women with personality disorders that are just straight up broken that will betray a man just because.
Deep Strength,
My wife gained quite a bit of weight in her later pregnancies, after she was done she failed repeatedly to be consistent with her health.
I took full control of what she eats sometime back, she didn’t want to stay as she was and willingly gave it to me. Her diet doesn’t peter out now becasue she will be punished in specific ways if she goes over. It’s harsh and effective, and any time she isn’t in trouble she thanks me for every bit of progress she makes.
Don’t forget that you are the motivation, and you can be enough of a reason to want to change too (though she was more distressed about the post-pregnancy weight than I was in our case, I took it over more for health concerns and to stop her from being angry at herself).
What you’re talking about is a woman initiating her own diet with her own self-discipline and failing. I’m talking about a woman submitted to you who will change her habits with the help of your strength and resolve. (and it’s not fun to be her strength, tracking things is tedious, the rare punishments are a pain to have to dole out, and dealing with her freaking out over minor setbacks is excruciating to me, but results are accomplished)
I’d say being a Christian is not trainable though, as in that case we’re talking about part of her transcendent nature, and a transformation that goes way beyond what a good husband can bring.
But when I say trainable, I mean putting a lot of work and thought into changing something that’s a problem. It’s far and wide beyond telling her you want her to diet and expecting her to do it herself, or telling her you want her to be more knowledgeable about something and not actively teaching her.
I’ll grant that if you have to train too many things it’s not worth the effort.
Ras,
I wasn’t saying that they are totally transformable. When you mould something you still have to work with the clay you have.
I had a fairly long list of things FN wanted that I deemed as ‘natural’ or ‘unchangeable’, and being a Christian in and of itself was foremost on that list.
But if it’s something you could change about yourself then it’s something you can change about her.
Query FN- When you say “as a man you should have unrealistic requirements for marriage,” are you speaking in a general, universal way or are you specific to the present environment within the West?
@ prariepolyguy
This is incorrect. I have extensive experience with nutrition and exercise. It’s not for lack of information or initiation or encouragement, it’s because it ultimately doesn’t matter to her.
You overestimate the amount of women willing to put forth the effort. It’s clear that the amount of men and women who are willing to do this are not that high in today’s society.
@ novaseeker
It’s risky to think people will change in general in my opinion.
Yes, women are willing to change for their men (to what extent is debatable), but they have to have some type of drive there in the first place otherwise they will come to resent you for wanting them to change even if it’s good for them.
Deep,
Candidly, we’re not talking about a peer here. It doesn’t matter if it matters to her or not. All that matters is if she’s truely submissive to you and weather you’ll put forth the effort to monitor and discipline.
But I’m speaking of a woman you will keep, take care of, and rule over. Not just a girlfreind you don’t have lasting bonds or investments in.
And I wouldn’t agree with the ‘resentment’ assertion either, at least not if you’re doing her right.
Just don’t confuse ‘wanting her to change’ (begging, nagging, passive aggressive bs) and ‘making her change’ (clear commands and expectations, discipline, and monitoring). I think the difference between ‘wanting’ and ‘making’ is where we’re talking past each other.
@ prariepolyguy
Indeed, that is the main difference/problem/solution: married versus single. It helps rather significantly to have someone actually invested.
On the other hand, that risk is not something I’m going to be willing to take so it’s a moot point.
:D
Don’t forget this is a marketplace. Excessive risk-aversion is not a trait that gets you choice investments. And time is no ones freind.
FN:
I married very badly. I’m now divorced, but have to share custody of my son with my ex who is a total passive aggressive liar. She makes my life hell. In this day and age it is better to not roll the dice of marriage.
this is what happens when you have 20 somethings trying to espouse wisdom. Lol at the 30+, good luck if you’re a 40+ male. Really I’d focus more on the personality. It’s the one thing that never gets better and often gets much worse. Also birth control pills (how long on them, etc) is VERY important. Either way you could just be unlucky as well in which case marriage will be the closest thing to hell you will experience.
@ FBNF: I’;; check the e-mail tomorrow.
@ Donal:
A man should have high requirements for a marriage partner. In our present society, not all men will be able to find a women who meets high requirements. This necessarily means that the requirements men should have will be at least partly unrealistic.