Men and Women’s Dating Markets

Here’s an article (H/T: RPR) of a woman whining about she hates dating because she wants an ‘organic’ relationship. The article is worthless, but there is something that I want to highlight:

I’d long been criticized for never having “officially dated.” In an attempt to put this argument to rest, I decided to say “yes” to any agreeable man who asked me out. I had 98 dates in nine months.

I’ve talked about this before but this is a good reason to reiterate. Over an extended period, this women had 11 “agreeable” men ask her out each month (I wonder how many ‘non-agreeable’ men she rejected).

And I doubt her 11 dates a month is abnormally high. From her photo, she’s rather attractive for her age, but when she’s 20-odd years past her prime, any average 20-25 year old gal who takes basic care of herself would be her match there, and, at least from her article, it doesn’t sound like she has all that dazzling a personality.

Despite this, she got almost 100 dates in less than year by simply not saying no to ‘agreeable’ men.

Compare this to Krauser, one of the masters of bedding women, who has spent years perfecting and writing about game and has bed more women than 99% men ever have or will. He opened 1000 women and got a grand total of 60 dates in a year.

Again, an average woman got 98 dates in 9 months for doing nothing, while a grand-master of game got 60 dates in a year after busting his hump.

That is how easy the dating market is for women. The vast majority of men will never get anywhere near as many opportunities for romance in their whole life no matter how much effort they put in as this average-looking woman got in 9 months of not saying no.

This is the difference between men and women in the dating market.


This is also why advice of ‘just be yourself‘ and ‘you’ll find someone when you stop looking‘ is so common, yet so useless. For women it’s true: all a woman has to do is show up, not cripple herself and say yes and she has her pick of 100 guys a year. She doesn’t need to search and she can just be herself.

In fact, for a woman, ‘looking’ is probably counter-productive. Given the massive opportunities for romance that just come to her, she obviously does not mean looking in the sense most males do, ie. trying to find and ask out suitable members of the opposite sex. She means something totally different; when she’s looking she’s actively vetting men, ie. ruling men out, so when she stops looking she’s no longer ruling men out beforehand, giving one of those hundred guys a foot in the door.

Men though simply can’t do this. George Clooney maybe, but very few others. If you ‘just be yourself’ you’re one of the hundred faceless men boring her with your dog and pony show. If you stop looking, you’re not even one of those 100 men, you’re no one.

This is also why women are often devoid of sympathy/empathy for male dating problems. It’s not that they’re heartless, it’s that they simply can’t understand (unless they are unattractive): the concept of not having plenty of options is as alien to them as having a date fall into your lap every 3 days with no effort is to men.


This came up briefly in my personal life; I was with my folks and we were talking about my sister. She went through a break-up and my mother was surprised that she hadn’t jumped back into a relationship within a month and she was proud that she didn’t just jump back into it. I dryly said, “A whole month”. Then she talked about how woman can usually have plenty of options after a break-up.

Little things like that really hammer home the point that women live in a whole different world.


So, things to consider for men:

Every time you’re asking a woman out, you’re competing against the other 99 men who’ve asked her out that year. What makes you better than them? Why would she choose you when she rejected them?

If you want to win, you either need to find a girl who doesn’t get 100 offers a year  or you need to offer what those other 99 guys don’t.

Make it look “organic”. She has dozens of dog-and-pony shows she could could attend, make it seem like it just happened.

Practical things for women:

Be available, don’t say no, start saying yes.

That’s it. If you’re a decent person and moderately attractive, you’ll have a guy in no time.


  1. Good observation mate. Though, women should goto dates with many men, because it is only way to understand whether the guy is alpha or not. On the other hand, a man doesnt need many dates, only the girls look is important.

  2. “And I doubt her 11 dates a month is abnormally high.”

    You doubt wrong. Perhaps in a place as congested as Manhattan (where the article said she lives), among those that frequent bars/clubs, and/or those that parade around dressed like a slut who get plenty of ONS requests, 11 per month might be normal. Among those of us that are nice quiet and modest from small towns that don’t go to bars/clubs, 11 per month is unheard of, no matter how attractive. Case in point ~ I fit the “nice quiet modest etc” group, have been told by literally hundreds of people that I’m the nicest person they know, also by hundreds of people that I’m pretty/beautiful/etc, and I haven’t been asked out by 98 men in my entire lifetime, let alone 9 months. Not even close. Either I’m a freak case, or she is. I never hear other women complaining about the hordes of men they deal with like the woman who wrote that article is, or even any women bragging about having that many men to choose from. So I’m betting those numbers aren’t normal and she is just a freak case. Or she’s very much exaggerating.

  3. A couple of observations:

    1. She wants an “organic” relationship. What this means is that she wants it to be “fun” and “spontaneous” and “effortless” and “sparks flying” and it “just happened”. It shouldn’t be work or require effort, nor should it be difficult or time consuming.

    2. I think your description of the dating market is correct for most women in this SMP in which the possibility of fast sex for men is there. The only group for whom it doesn’t seem to be true are the infinitesimally small number of true Christian girls who will not put out.

    3. It’s simply impossible to believe that these women can’t find even one man who trips their triggers. An average woman can get 100 dates in a year? ONE HUNDRED? And not even ONE of them is “right” or even “mostly right”? Does this woman mean to tell us that out of a hundred men, she can’t make it work with even ONE of them? I’m sorry, I can’t take such complaints and assertions seriously. I just can’t.

    4. I’ve said this before at Haley’s Halo: Consider the average woman who probably spends 10 years dating. Assume in 10 years (120 months) she gets asked out once every three months. That’s 40 dates. Are we to understand that out of those 40 men, not one of them, NOT ONE, is good enough?

  4. FBNF:

    “Either I’m a freak case, or she is.”

    I’ll use your words for the purposes of this response. You’re the freak case. You’re the outlier, the unusual blip, the one that messes up the averages.

    Most women are rejecting men left and right. Most women are rejecting men before they even get out of the gate.

    The answer to the riddle is that you’re one of the vanishingly small cohort of women who won’t put out before marriage. That’s it, in a nutshell. That’s the largest reason for why you don’t get asked out much.

    There could be a wide variety of additional reasons too, which I’m not privy to: (1) Rural living area. (2) Low ratio of men to women. (3) Poor economy. And that’s just for starters.

  5. @ FBNF

    There are a couple of things at play here that distinguish you from this woman (who is more aligned with what the “average” woman is today). You are correct about the location mattering- some areas just have better “dating markets” than others. NY is one such place.

    Another component is how a woman acts- one who dresses and acts provocatively will naturally get more male attention than one who is demure. However, that doesn’t mean such a woman won’t get attention- it just might not be the same kind of attention. Around such a woman men might be less direct, more cautious, not wanting to “scare” her away.

    There is also another aspect of how a woman acts- does she place herself out there? A woman who is very insular and doesn’t get out much won’t get the same kind of attention as an extrovert who is always out in the world. Its hard to get approached when you don’t meet a lot of different men.

    What FN was getting at is that a woman and a man who act in similar manners will not get the same results. The average woman has an advantage in the present market over the average man.

    You might not be noticing this personally because you aren’t an average woman. Which is a compliment these days, considering the nature of the average woman in the West at present.

  6. Keep in mind, not only is she much more attractive than the average woman her age, but she’s a cougar expert. She’s even written a bestselling book about cougaring. That matters, because it vastly opens her possibilities, at her age, for “dates” because she is open to (or putting herself in situations where she would be open to) a much wider group of men than most women her age are doing. And she’s in Manhattan, which is one of the larger meat markets in the US, even the world. Much better looking than age peers + cougar + Manhattan leads to those kinds of results. She’s not very average in any way, really.

  7. Thank you for the compliment Donal.

    I missed the last line in the OP this morning, possibly because I’ve read it’s equal 1,000 times before. The one about how if a woman is just a decent person and moderately attractive, that she will have a guy in no time. From my own experience I can tell you that’s not true. Or rather, it is…. incomplete. If that’s all it takes to get a man, then feral women wouldn’t have men drooling all over them left and right, and I (and others like me) would have far more than a grand total of 10 guys having bothered to ask me out. No that’s not a typo ~ I counted just now and there have been 10. From middle school until now, and I just turned 29 about 3 months ago. That’s an average of 1 guy every (almost) 2 years. Compared to an “average woman’s” 200 date requests every 2 years! And that’s with me putting myself out there as much as I can in a rural area without much going on, and without going to bars.

    That’s why I have a very, VERY hard time taking seriously the idea that most men actually “want” to marry someone who lives chastely and is nice. If we are as rare as unicorns, and if almost every man wants one, then WHY DO WE GET PASSED UP WHEN MOST MEN CHASE AFTER THE KIND OF WOMEN THEY SUPPOSEDLY “DON’T WANT”?!?!?!?!

    And then, to make matters worse, it’s claimed repeatedly that we should have it so easy. Perhaps we should, but we don’t. Obviously.

  8. Ace, glad to see you are still around. Miss your works, I have far too few gaps to fill in these days.

    @ FBNF

    That’s why I have a very, VERY hard time taking seriously the idea that most men actually “want” to marry someone who lives chastely and is nice.

    They don’t. At least for the chaste part. And honestly I think very few are really all that marriage minded anymore. At least in the Millenial generation.

  9. Donal,

    Many thanks.

    Posting will still be slow in the coming weeks but should ramp up come Autumn, if you don’t mind the wait [life’s been hectic].

  10. Yeah, thats pretty much the way markets work.

    If the market is good for corn farmers, it is bad for people who want to buy corn from them. If the market is good for the oil companies, it is bad for people who have to buy gasoline. If the market is good for women seeking dates and sex, it is bad for the men seeking dates and sex from them.

    The advantage of one comes from the disadvantage of the other. One’s poverty creates the other’s wealth.

    Because the male demand for sex is greater than the female demand, men are essentially running the sexual equivalent of a fire sale; they offer women great deals on sex when women finally decide to “buy”.

    The flip side is that sex is an achievement for men, but merely a choice for women. A sexually successful man sees an increase in his SMV, while a promiscuous woman will see no such benefit, and will likely see her SMV decline through her experiences. A man’s value comes from getting the prize, while a woman’s value comes from being the prize, not from giving her prize away.

  11. @ FBNF: It obviously depends a lot on the environment in which you live and the actions of which you partake. I would not be abnormally high, for her environment. And, whatever the environment, the same underlying pattern holds.

    For example (and I’m not trying to get into a pissing match), you mention living in a small town/rural area; I live in a moderate-sized city and we’ve both been searching for the same thing. (Excluding online dating) I’ve been propositioned thrice in my entire life, so your 10 is still 3x more, despite my nominally better environment.

    You might not have many opportunities compared to a New York socialite, but compared to the men in your same area (barring the top 1-5%), I’d bet you (and most women) have had far more choices presented to you.

    You get passed on for the same reason young men get passed on; most young men are not looking for marriage, just like most young women aren’t.

    Most people in their 20’s in our fallen age are looking for a good time, so the sluts and the rakes get far more attention, that’s the way it is and will be until the kali yuga ends.

  12. Fair enough. The only reason I put my #10 out there was to show that being nice doesn’t help a girl get a guy. It seems to have the opposite effect, just like when a guy is nice and therefore has that much more trouble getting a girl. Which is why I get so frustrated when people (in the ‘sphere especially) say things like “That’s it. If you’re a decent person and moderately attractive, you’ll have a guy in no time.”

    I was in a bit of shock after reading this post yesterday. I knew my #10 was somewhat lower than a lot of other women’s #’s… but I didn’t know it was that drastic of a difference. Reading this, plus the comments about how women are turning down men left and right and all that, was like a punch in the face. Not a girly slap in the face, but a furious man punching another man as hard as he can kind of punch in the face.

  13. FBNF, One way I found that was helpful for meeting people my age in a rural/small town area (under 15,000 people, 45 minute drive from the nearest small mall) was to have dinner parties or go bowling with a mixed sex group of friends. We would invite new people we’d met at work, church, or at other locations in town. Met a girl friend this way.

    In my opinion the advantage of small towns is that there is a greater desire for cultivating relationships (platonic and romantic) in part because people have less recreational activities. I’ve since moved to a larger town in the state but miss the small town for this reason. Best of luck.

  14. FN and FBNF show how they are flip sides of the same coin. Neither are satisfied with their prospects.

    I first have to agree with FBNF about the author and her 11 dates a month. This high number is clearly a product of living in NYC. Her dissatisfaction with dating is also a product of NYC. It remains one of the worst cities to ever find love and marriage for women.

    For men, especially successful men, NYC is a great “dating” environment where thousands of new young women enter the dating pool every month. The author of the piece is not actually turned off by dating per se but by NYC dating which is male-oriented making it very sex transactional (“Hi, I’m rich. You should be my concubine.”)

    However, the piece did show some inherent truths about what men and women seek from one another when considering commitment. When it comes to the idea of commitment:

    A. Women are attracted to men by their ability to take care of her and her children.

    (Article example – “[Men] dangle their toys in front our eyes in the hopes that we’ll bite the bait. Oddly, they’re not the bait. Their possessions are the bait.”

    These men are displaying the high value of their “toys” as a way of showing her their wealth meaning their ability to provide.)

    B. Men are attracted to women by their beauty.

    (Article example – “The need to dress up, straighten my hair and wonder if I’m good enough feels like poison running through my veins.”

    The author knows she is the “toy” on display, and she doesn’t like it.)

    Of course, there are other things, but those two are usually the initial impetuses that draws the sexes to one another. This makes good sense. This is the way were designed. Men want to have a very strong sexual bond with their wives, and women want to feel safe and secure when they later become mothers.

    However, this blog post exposes a bigger issue – human sexuality has been disconnected from marriage in modern society.

    There are so many ramifications to this. As long as sex is regularly exchanged before marriage as barter currency in today’s “dating” world, it will be hard for good Christian men and women to come together in a healthy and sustaining marriage.

    It is most important to understand that marriage is God’s plan through which men and women can enjoy the unique gifts of the opposite sex while also providing a proper environment to raise children. When this kind of Christian marriage serves as the foundation of a society, God’s love for his children can grow and deepen and society prospers.

    Sadly, our modern society has corrupted this selfless and giving form of marriage into something self-centered, turning men and women against one another. That’s why it often doesn’t work anymore. God didn’t design marriage as only a one-sided value proposition. It also involves mutual faith and giving.

    I realize that I’m not saying anything groundbreaking here, but I do think that it is important to reset the big issue because we can all lose the forest for the trees when we examine only certain aspects of an issue too closely.

    The question comes down to how we shift back towards real Christian marriage – something that FN and FBNF clearly want.

    Although both young men and young women are being harmed equally today, I do believe we must begin our efforts with young women. Christian parents of daughters must prioritize their daughters’ lives towards finding husbands while they are young and still virgins (late teens to early 20s) rather than prioritizing this modern view of young women going to college and getting a job/career, usually in some big city.

    Women need to get married and have children young because they are biologically ready to have children in their teens, and their biology drives them towards a desire to utilize their sexuality not long after this happens. This is why poor girls get pregnant at 14 or 15. Most have no father in the house so they enter puberty earlier which starts their sexuality/motherhood cycle earlier. (Look up Bruce Ellis of Arizona State University for his scientific studies about how a lack of biological fathers causes early puberty in girls.)

    Even in homes with fathers, young women around 18-20 are ready, both biologically and mentally, to be mothers. This is why teenage girls are extremely “horny” regardless of whether they are having sex yet. Rather than accepting this and encouraging young women into marriage, parents give their daughters birth control and send them off to college. This begins the cycle we see today – women riding the carousel throughout their 20s and then desperately looking for marriage and children before their fertility window closes.

    This push for young women to delay marriage can partly be explained by the idea of their mothers transferring their own hypergamy to their daughters. These mothers think that sending their daughters to college and the workplace will have them around more eligible men for marriage. Even if this is true, their daughters will be competing for these men with thousands of other young women. Most will end up bitter like the author of the dating article.

    Many fathers can also be the source of this problem. These dads bond more with their daughters than their wives. This often causes them to fall into the “no man is good enough for my little girl” syndrome in which he subconsciously wants her to remain single so that his daughter can continue to fill non-sexual female needs that his wife won’t.

    I’ve seen so many fathers who are more connected to their daughters than their wives even if they aren’t even divorced. I’m not saying there is an incestual element to it. I’m just saying that daughters are more likely to allow their fathers to lead them while many wives aren’t. Men want to be leaders within their families so they are drawn to their daughters who allow them to play this role in their lives when their wives won’t.

    I believe that both these mother and father problems come from non-Christian marriages where the wife rode the carousel before marriage which causes her to not submit to her husband sexually or otherwise. Husbands and wives in these marriages can’t fill their proper roles and chaos ensues flowing from them to their kids and society at large.

    We as a society have to end this cycle. We must accept a young women’s biology and encourage them into Christian marriage early. This means that parents should also encourage their daughters to consider good Christian men of all ages. They should be looking more at the maturity of the man and his abilities as a provider than his age.

    It is very hard to be the head of family and its primary provider. Some young men can do it. Most can’t. (I will get to this in detail later.) Young women shouldn’t limit themselves only to men around their age. This is another modern society trap.

    If numerous young women get married early and become mothers before they have ridden the carousel, then our society will slowly start to turn around. This is why women must be addressed first. Married women will grow in numbers greater than single women. We also know statistically that women who marry as virgins rarely divorce.

    Soon legions of married women will begin to form the same political and societal bonds that single feminists do today. Our recent elections have shown that married women always vote more conservatively than single women do.

    I know FN may disagree with me on this point, but a young male being horny does not similarly make him an early marriage candidate as it does a horny young woman. God created men and women differently. Husbands are heads of families which means that God expects them to provide for and lead their families.

    A woman fills her role for the family through her sexuality. She gives this gift to her husband. From her sexuality comes her ability to have a child and then take care of that child. A woman’s sexuality is intimately tied to conceiving, birthing, feeding, and caring for children. It is also the fundamental thing that bonds her husband to her.

    This is why the purity and goodness of a woman’s sexuality is so important. This is how her character is judged. Has she only shared herself with her husband so that the proper emotional bonds exist between husband, wife, and children?

    A man’s sexuality does not serve this same purpose. Getting a woman pregnant is not what makes a man a father. A father must provide so much more than his sperm.

    A man’s character is largely judged by how he makes his way in the world – his work and goals, his faith, how he treats others. Is he a caring steward on this earth or just a selfish person?

    These differences in the sexes show how God made men and women complimentary.

    Being a man is about work and then leadership in God’s eyes. Being a husband is about how that work shapes a man. It is about maturity – putting others above yourself when necessary. This takes time and experience. Husband, when used as a verb, means “to carefully use or manage (something, such as a resource).” This clearly shows a wider and fundamentally different duty than wife and mother within the family.

    As a young man spends this time working to become fit as a husband, he shouldn’t despair in this process or the time it may take. Remember that my plan for young women to consider older men as husbands allows men to have time to find themselves in their work without losing the prospect of marrying a young, non-carousel riding woman.

    To FBNF or any young single woman, I would encourage you to include men that may be significantly older than your age range (10 or more years older) as you look to find a husband. Men looking for sex first before commitment will ALWAYS be poor husbands. They are either too immature, or they simply aren’t interested in marriage at all. Either man is a poor prospect.

    To FN or any young single man I would say what I’ve said before in my comments on this blog, find yourself through your work. Remember always that God wants man to work. Man is not guaranteed a wife by God, but he is always expected to work. Once a man finds his God-honoring work on this earth, his prospects for marriage flow from there.

    Yes, this sounds hard for young men. However, God also requires wives to submit to husbands. Husbands are assumed to be capable to support and lead their families through their work. A man’s work is what shapes his ability to be the “head” of a family.

    Also, a Christian marriage commands that a wife’s submission is not earned by her husband. It is always to be given. Men earn our right to be husbands from God, not our wives. He expects us to be wise and kind leaders in our families and leaders in their worship of Him.

    With great power comes great responsibility. God gave women their sexuality. God gave men their ability to provide and lead. Both sexes are responsible to use them wisely.

    Marriage should always be about this dynamic – a mutual respect for the unique responsibilities that each sex brings to it.

    As far as dating goes:

    Young women – If it is anything less than a way to meet and evaluate a future husband, young women are wasting their most precious resource – time. A woman’s beauty and sexuality has a time limit. Date men with the intention of finding a husband, not as a way of having fun. Though not always, looking for fun and for a husband are usually mutually exclusive.

    Young men – You don’t need to be George Clooney to have women “competing” for you. All you need is to have the ability to “husband” a family that is consistent with the understanding of the marriageable women you live among.

    To both sexes, don’t be too picky about the superficial things. Keep your focus on the attributes that a perspective spouse would bring to a true Christian marriage.

  15. F.N,

    As I read her story, she is embarking on this series of dates with something to prove to someone. As such, her heart and mind are not in it. She carries resentment of being pushed into it… So, she keeps looking and dating with the idea in her mind that she at least will get a story out of it.

    To the chaste, virginal woman in this thread:

    Get yourself an arranged or set-up date, where the man you’re put together with is someone who prioritises obedience to whomever arranges it. (That last bit is the hard part)

    Best regards,


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