There was a strong reaction to a link I posted concerning some red pill women advising other women to lie about their N-count.The Ringmistress stated in the comments:
What I keep running up against is that while I can do a pretty good job arguing for remaining a virgin until marriage, I have no clue what a person who isn’t should say if they repent of their past and want to make a go at a chaste courtship.
So, as a young Christian man looking to find a wife, I’ll answer.
For any woman considering lying about how many men she slept with, the answer is always don’t (at least if you plan to have the relationship be long-term; if it’s a simple fling, it probably doesn’t matter).
I can not stress how important it is for women not to lie, dissemble, avoid answering, or otherwise conceal the truth about how many men they slept with prior to a partner they hope to be in a long-term relationship or marriage with.
A relationship built on a lie is not healthy. The truth will eventually come out (one of your friends will eventually accidentally mention Steve) and when it does, the consequences for lying will be what the consequences for lying usually are.
As for avoidant answers: any man with any self-respect and options who hears “it’s in the past”, “it’s none of your business”, “it doesn’t matter, I’m with you now”, etc. will consign you to the short-term, pump n’ dump, or just plain dump categories.
So, the question then becomes how should a woman inform a man she’s considering a long-term relationship with that she’s slept with many other men?
First, realize that he likes you. If he’s dating you and a long-term relationship is a realistic possibility, he is very favourably disposed towards you (or exceedingly desperate, but we’ll ignore that). A man in love with a women will look on anything she tells him in the best possible light; the haze of infatuation can cover many more sins than you possibly realize. If you address the issue properly, odds are it will cause some troubles (as sins do) but won’t end the relationship. If it would end the relationship, it is far better for it to occur now than during the engagement or after five years of marriage.
Don’t be afraid of telling him.
Second, don’t bring it up first. There’s no need to. If he asks, tell him, but some men honestly don’t care. If he doesn’t bring it up, there’s no need for you to go out of your way to volunteer the information apropos of nothing. If he doesn’t bring it up, and only if he doesn’t bring it up, he might simply prefer not to know or not care. If he doesn’t, don’t worry about it. If he does ask or even mention its, he definitely cares, so definitely tell him.
Third, be honest. Honesty is by far the most important thing. Do not lie, do not be evasive, don’t “be cute”, don’t underestimate, don’t exclude those times that ‘don’t count’, don’t conceal anything, etc. Tell the full and honest truth. Also, yes, oral sex and anal sex do count, as does sex that ‘didn’t mean anything’, one night stands, sex in foreign countries, and ‘just that one time in high school’. If it comes to mind, it counts.
Fourth, the exact number probably doesn’t matter, but do not lie about the number or give a false impression. Whether it was 6 or 8 likely won’t matter, whether if was 14 or 18 won’t matter. Unless he asks for a specific number, once it’s over five or so, the specific number if not really of importance, the range is. If it’s under five, just tell him the straight number. ‘Many’ is a legitimate answer for anything over 5 (‘a few’ is not; a few means less than five), but will likely prompt calls for clarification. ‘High single digits’ or the exact number works for anything under 10. ‘About a dozen’ is a legitimate answer for anything from 10-15. ‘About 20’ will work for any number from 15-23. ‘A few dozen’ will work for anything over 24, but under 50. ‘Over 50’ or ‘over 100’ (really?) is sufficient for anything beyond that. You do not have to be specific, unless he asks for specifics, but you have to be truthful. If you would honestly use the descriptor in everyday life for the accurate measurement of the quantity of mundane things, then it’s fine to use as a descriptor here.
Fifth, realize exactly how important this issue is. You may try to delude yourself that it doesn’t matter, that it’s a small thing, etc. Many crooked souls and diseased minds will tell you the same. Do not listen to them. It matters.
If you’re a Christian, reading Deuteronomy 22 should be more than enough information on how important God views this issue as. Fornication is a sin against God, against yourself, and against your future spouse. Do not belittle exactly how sinful it is. All sin has worldly consequences; fornication is not an exception. There will be earthly consequences for violating God’s law.
If you are a non-Christian, know that the single biggest risk factor a woman has for divorce is the number of sexual partners she had prior to marriage. Having one premarital partner doubles the risk of divorce, two partners triples it. Sex has immensely strong neuro-chemical effects that bond you with sexual partners; the more you have bonded with, the less bonding will occur with further partners.
Whatever hedonists and libertines may tell you, having numerous sexual partners seriously hurts people’s abilities to bond with intimate partners. Your numbers prior to your current partner do matter. Do not take it less seriously than it deserves.
The amount of men you’ve had sex with does matter to your partner, it is his business, and he’s not being a judgmental asshole by asking. (The same goes for vice versa; men, if your long-term girl asks, answer truthfully). Trying to shame him into not inquiring as a short-sighted thing to do.
Sixth, be genuinely repentant. This matters a lot. Once you realize the gravity of your previous sinful actions, repentance should be your desire. You should be genuinely repentant and sorrowful that you have harmed your marriage through your actions prior to marriage and it should show through in both word and deed. There should be no pride, no excuses, no indignation that he would ask, no accusations of judgmentalism, no “born-again virgin” nonsense, etc. Simply ask his forgiveness. You should display be nothing but authentic remorse and humility for misguided actions. If you don’t feel genuine remorse and aren’t truly repentant, than you don’t understand the gravity of your prior actions. Read your Bible, particularly those sections on sexual sin, more and/or truly try to understand the statistics linked above until you do; you are not ready for marriage until you truly understand this.
Seventh, do not bring up prior partners with him outside of this specific discussion. Never compare him in bed to anyone else. Never talk wistfully about past partners. Never idly wonder out-loud about past partners. Don’t have any keepsakes. Etcetera, etcetera. It’s simple, never bring up anything that has to do with previous sex partners.
(The widow is an obvious exception. It is fine to keep some momentos of a dead spouse and to occasionally mention him, but still avoid comparisons. The other exception is in a serious, humble talk with other women, to show them the error of licentious living.)
Eighth, have no expectations or demands. You do not ‘deserve’ to have him marry you (and he does not ‘deserve’ you). Just because he forgives you, because God’s forgives you, does not mean that there are no consequences. He is completely justified in breaking it off for your past actions. Do not guilt him for his reaction, do not demand he remain yours, do not pressure him, do not question his manhood, etc. Simply be humble, ask his forgiveness, await his answer, and accept his decision.
That’s it. In a nutshell, be honest, be repentant, be discreet, and recognize your actions for what they truly are.
Realize that there will be earthly consequences. He might break-up with you, you will hurt him, you will be hurt yourself, there may be long-term distrust or other long-term issues. The earthly consequences of sin do not disappear simply because you are forgiven by God, or even if you are forgiven by man.
Of course, all this can be avoided by being chaste, that’s by far the better option if you ever want to marry.
I will update my post to link to your response here, which goes a long way towards explaining how an unchaste woman should respond to her sins.
For a scriptural example of such a woman (I don’t see how “sinful woman” can mean anything other than slut or harlot) expressing genuine repentance, I suggest Luke 7:36-50.
I want to add a response to something I saw in the original thread, asked by the original poster
“Won’t any high value man care about my number?”
You’re over thinking while also under estimating our intuition and sleuthing abilities. Free Northerner has already said the first part of that isn’t your job. To the second part of that…
Men know how much attention you get on Facebook
They know how many pictures get taken of you
They know how easy it is for a woman to learn how to get drinks, meals, out of traffic tickets, into concerts, etc based on your looks. We know that men give those things with the intention of flirting or making a move on you.
We know men give you gifts to try and have sex with you. If you’re skilled at giving/getting gifts, we wonder.
If you like slutty pop icons, we wonder.
Basically, we wil judge you whether we say we will or not. We always have, always will
How to use the 6th point for non-Christians? Obviously, if she doesn’t believe in sin, she has to have something else. What would a non-Christian guy prefer in that area? Non-Christian guys (if you are here), what do you think?
Deti is the best guy to answer as this very issue happened to him.
A woman…whether she tells you the actual truthful number…or keeps it concealed always reveals the truth. The problem is the detectives are in the dark on what to look for.
The questions should be…how masculine is she and how do you think that got in there? Tats, drinking, smoking, immodestly dressed, piercing other than ears, seeks attention, shit-tests to mega levels, hates taking instruction from men, says she doesn’t need men, obese, in debt, etc.
She’s been burned by too many matches. Her psyche will tell you everything you need to know.
Ideally when you meet her the most masculine influence in her life growing up is her father. If the most masculine influence in her life growing up is her mother…run away.
HA! Of course she wants to ‘repent’ of her cad-fucking past and wants to give ‘chaste courtship’ a go …
… now that she’s HIT THE WALL!
Friends don’t let friends become provider betas
I have met all of two girls who i beleive their stated notch count. One was north of 50 at age 22, the other 1 at 20 and already divorced. I believe the traditional rule of thumb is multiply by 3, though another math easy one is simply add a 0 behind what she says.
We men of the west live in a sewer. Is it truly possible for a clean fish to be found in a sewer?
“HA! Of course she wants to ‘repent’ of her cad-fucking past and wants to give ‘chaste courtship’ a go …
… now that she’s HIT THE WALL!”
That’s one of the reasons I asked the question that I asked… How can anyone say they repent their sexual promiscuity with any shred of credibility? Who was the victim of the promiscuity, except the woman herself (to non-Christians anyway)? And then, if the only victim is the woman herself, repentance essentially boils down to “I regret doing that because it lowered my marriage value in many ways”.
Good post, FN.
I agree with the points here.
A girl who divulges her N on a request from her man needs to tell him EVERYTHING he asks. The minute she starts dissembling, or gets evasive or defensive – NEXT.
Trust me, gentlemen, it’s not worth it. The sex isn’t worth it. The time isn’t worth it. No pussy is worth this.
Ladies, the hell you will put yourself, your man, and your children through isn’t worth it.
Ladies, if you fraud yourself into a marriage this way by being anything less than totally honest about this, the truth WILL come out eventually. And it will come out in a way that you will not like, and that you will not be able to control.
At that point, the very best you can hope for is to remain married to a man who forgives you for your dishonesty, but who will never fully trust you. Your dishonesty about something so fundamental to your marriage will always be there as a wedge between the two of you.
He will always wonder what else you were dishonest about. He will always wonder what other shoe(s) will drop. He will always wonder if you have really, truly been honest with him. When you tell him “I love you”, he will always question in his own mind and heart if you really mean that, because you were obviously so self- interested as to lie to him about something so important to him.
You had better expect that he will vet your honesty HARD from then on out. He will take the attitude of “trust, but verify” with you. He will never, ever blindly trust you or take your word as bond again. He will double check every assertion you make. He will run clandestine paternity tests on your children to verify his paternity. He will see a lawyer to determine what his rights and duties will be if you go even more batshit and decide to pull an “Eat Pray Love” on him. He will exert tighter control over the household. He will watch and question everything you do and say. After all – if you felt it necessary to lie about your past N, WHAT ELSE HAVE YOU LIED ABOUT?
He will do these things because he must – he has to protect himself and his children.
Answers such as “its in my past” and “it doesnt matter anymore” are self-providing.
As stated the woman in such an event will be a short-term thing, so when you decide to let her go you simply say “it’s in the past now” or whatever version she used
“None of your business”…means that you know what business they’ve been doing.
Ladies… the truth WILL come out eventually. And it will come out in a way that you will not like, and that you will not be able to control.
I recall a case from another Manosphere site, where a man reported that his wife — who claimed a premarital N of 7 — was in an accident. And as she was brought into the emergency room, the doctors tried to get a medical history from her. She was woozy, either from the injuries or from the drugs given by the paramedics, or both — but she was awake enough to answer their questions. When they asked her how many sexual partner she had, she drowsily mumbled… 35……
Have no doubt, that was the true number.
Good post, I would add this piece of advice for the ladies though: If a man isn’t interested in your N, take that as a red flag. Men who don’t care about your past, probably don’t care about your future.
Case in point, I suppose I have a slight preference for more chaste girls at the moment, but that’s because I’m not looking for anything long term. When/If I get into wife-seeking mode, chastity will become much, much more important.
Geez, over 50?!
I used to lie. Nobody believed me when I told the truth, so I took on saying 5 or 6, according to what I thought the other person wanted to hear. I look reasonably attractive, even though I dress conservative and never use makeup etc, so I understand when people don’t believe that I am not interested in sex.
The truth is 1. One person I had sex with when I was 20, having led to believe we would marry, until I was informed that shiksas are for practice and he had lied about whether or not he was Jewish.
After that, I never even kissed anybody until I met the man I am married to now. I other words, I didn’t have sex for 15 years.
When a female gives her heart and soul to a guy who lies and cheats on her, she then spends alot of time totally distrusting of men and never quite finds the one who won’t do that to her. She may even end up promiscuous mending her shattered heart and psyche. The hate that you folks are promoting is scary. The fact that the initial guy cheated on her may be because she was clingy and he wanted his space. Deuteronomy 22 was not explained during times of psychological explanations for our behaviors. It is an ideal to strive for, but also another reason for men to hate non- virgins. Sex has been too much of a focus, aside from building healthy relationships. Religion is helpful, but I believe that we are continually led astray by societal conditioning.
I remember years ago having met a kind man who told me about how when he met his wife, he had fallen so deeply in love with her that he announced to her the past she had lived made her who she is now. For that he was grateful and could not give a care about who her boyfriends were. This is an ideal, I believe to strive for…forgiveness and understanding, compassion and nurturing. Yes? Not any of us behaves perfectly at all times.
From some of the earlier comments about women as deceitfully cunning and evil as Eve appeared, is it any wonder that women have a deep seeded self loathing and fear that leads us astray sometimes?
Why is it that if a man is promiscuous he is considered a stud, while a female is considered a slut?
If men find their virgin, do they spend the rest of their days being honest and faithful to her alone for the rest of their days? I would love to find those statistics.
Some of us women have been advised to never tell the numbers of boyfriends we have had, not so much to trick the person, but because we feel it is not relevant. Obviously it has been more relevant than I thought. Maybe our license plate numbers should signify our previous experiences so that we can get past ” go ” in the Monopoly game.
I am amazed at the passages from the Holy Bible that are chosen and exploited for various excuses to hate.
Hi anon,
You’ve got a lot of rambling here, so I’ll address what I feel like.
1) It is not societal conditioning, it is biology. Sex releases a number of hormones, etc. that bond people together. A women who has endocrinologicly bonded with other men is less likely to bond to you and her bond will be weaker.
2) I have no problem with men marrying non-virgins, as long as they are aware of the risks. People like you try to hide the risks and deceive men behind a bunch of nice-sounding baffle-gab, hurting men. Why are you trying to hurt men and destroy their lives? Why do you hate men?
3) Google the lock and key analogy. For men getting sex is difficult, for women it is easy, because biologically sperm is cheap, eggs are valuable.
4) The advice to not tell is bad advice given by people who hate men and want them to suffer.
5) You should be amazed by the Bible. It is God’s holy word for the salvation from sins. If you repent your sins, Jesus loves you and will forgive your sins, however many you may have and whatever they may be. His salvation is open to you.
God brought me to this article. I’m forced to confront this subject this week in my new LTR with a girl, and I feel a check in my Spirit about moving any further in the relationship until I do. There’s a lot of baggage and it’s important I address it even if it’s hard. Please pray for me my red-pill friends. Peace and Grace.
I will pray for you.
Something tells me that Anonymous has been less than chaste in her life.
If your n count is zero is that bad if your woman in your late twenties with a disability and have a good job.
This article is seriously crappy advice. A gentleman would never ask and a lady would never tell. Though I prefer a low N count, I would never ask a woman that I liked about her sexual experience before me, and I don’t expect to be asked. If a man (or woman) ask their partner about their sexual history, that would portend of future issues, recriminations, shaming tactics, immaturity, etc. Run, do not walk, away from a person who would ask you that.
No, John, “Don’t-ask-don’t-tell” is seriously crappy advice.
There are some things that a couple simply must talk through before getting married. Money, children, religion, in-laws… these issues simply must be resolved, and sexual history is another. Because the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior.
The truth will out – it always does – so it is better to know up front.
Another important bit of information is “how long ago was you last ‘encounter’?”.
If the answer is ‘last night”, this is very different from “last year”*.
(except on New Year’s Day, of course)
As a Red Piller myself I can say that the amount of bullshit I have read here is off the charts. The ‘lock and key’ analysis , the pair bonding theories my goodness… have you ever had any if ANY experience with real women? Are you a man of value or simply another beta phaggot who causes a nil impression on people? I have experienced first hand all the shit you talk about in here and I assure you people that if it’s true that the red pill is valuable it’s not something to be taken at face value. Every situation is different, every girl is different and motives are not that simple. Judge every situation carefully and with assessment. But the part about God and forgiveness…LOL you think you are a fucking god? You are just a judgmental loser and nobody wants your forgiveness. That is crazy talk. A mentally impaired person does those kinds of rationalizations. And this comes from a Christian and a Red Piller