Tag Archives: GBFM

Responses to Alternatives

This was going to be a part of the next Lightning Round, but it was threatening to take over the post, and it’s too important.

There has been an ongoing debate on Christianity and game. It sparked again recently at GBFM, Donal’s, Zippy’s, and Cane’s.

So, I asked what the alternative to game was for Christians. The thread blew up. I’m not even going to try to address the comments; there’re too many. I have read them all though.

Here’re some of the highlights, but I’d heavily recommend reading all the linked posts, not just the blurbs I put up.

Cane responded to my post; he seems to have taken my lament as a criticism of him and others in the Christian ortho-manosphere, when it was not intended as such.

To correct my error of ungratefulness, I wish to express gratitude here to Cane, and to all the others in the ortho-manosphere who have contributed their wisdom. It would be hard to overstate the value of the wisdom I have received from all those on my blogroll and those regularly comment at said blogs.

I responded to Cane here. Cane responded to some other responses here and here. In these he pointed out one thing I need to work on.

Limit yourself to a maximum of two of those nerdy hobbies, and over the course of a week spend less than one hour a day on them. So if you spend seven hours playing Call of Duty on a Saturday: No video games or other nerd hobbies for the rest of the week. Then put the rest of that time into more productive and attractive activities. Nobody gets docked by sane people for lifting weights, reading the Bible, taking walks, Sudoku, writing, cooking, painting, woodworking, or any number of other things. Here’s a generalization on how to know if a hobby is nerdy. If, at the end of the hobby’s endeavor, you don’t have a new product, life experience, or life skill: It’s probably nerdy. Collecting or buying baubles does not count as production.

Something I should work on.

Simon Grey responded to the post, blaming fear rather than awkwardness:

I do believe the phrase “awkward Christian man” is an oxymoron. A more accurate way of capturing reality would be “awkward churchian male.” Why? Because, “God has not given us a spirit of fear.”

Remember Christ’s exhortation to, “not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul[, b]ut rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” If Christ tells those who are his followers to not be afraid of death, then just why the fuck should any of them be afraid to talk to women? Why should they be afraid to be honest with women (or anyone, for that matter)? If you see a girl at church, think she’s pretty, and want to go out with her, why are you too much of a coward to simply tell her that you think she’s pretty and you want to take her out? You’re not supposed to fear death, so why would you fear a girl? Even if she is a succubus, you still shouldn’t fear her.
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That said, it seems the biggest problem that a lot of Church-going males have is that they are still quite ruled by fear. They can’t look people in the eyes and speak directly to them. They may eventually need to learn some social tact, but for now the bigger problem is fear.

Keoni replies to both Cane and myself:

Discovering “Game” was my game changer.

It gave me a language to describe and think about so many things I previously could not even name, let alone comprehend.

It provided a schema for grasping the larger concepts bereft in my emasculated upbringing. And ultimately, it has also  eventually brought me around full circle into belief in the truth of the Gospel of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
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Discovering “Game” was my game changer. It gave me a language to describe and think about so many things I previously could not even name, let alone comprehend. It provided a schema for grasping the larger concepts bereft in my emasculated upbringing. And ultimately, it has also  eventually brought me around full circle into belief in the truth of the Gospel of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
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Without discovering the red pill of game, I doubt I ever would have came to this realization and recognize this idolatry for what it is, nor broken free from it’s ritualistic worship. And I’m not the only one.
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Thanks to the socially engineered sexual and cultural revolutions, the transmission of modeled masculinity via Patrimony has been decimated. Many of us raised in the environment of crippled or non-existent Patrimony were never given the example to emulate. So the only other choice we do have, is to study and practice a systematic method to develop our own, individual expression of our chosen art form.

But like any systematic study of an art form, the study and practice of techniques is only a regimented means of developing a skill set and muscle memory to be able to move without thought.

Vox provided a small bit in response to Keoni:

Now, Game is not Christ. Game is not Truth. But Game is truth, and he who comes to love truth will, in time, come to love Truth as well. At the very least, the truth-seeker has set himself upon the rocky and difficult path that leads to the Kingdom of Heaven.

Vox also responded to GBFM’s attack on game. It’s not a response to me, but is related:

This does not mean both teachings are equally truthful nor does it mean they are the same. Indeed, it is not at all hard to identify the differences between them. However, it must be admitted that the Bible gives considerably less in the way of direction to Man concerning how he should behave towards women in specific circumstances than the Chateau does. It is silent on recommendations concerning text messaging, just to give one example.

I am a Christian. If you want my absolute core advice, it is this: Fear God.

Now, I could simply post that every day, and it would certainly be easier to do so, but I don’t see how it would be of much use to anyone. I could also limit my subjects addressed to Christian evangelism, but I don’t really have much more to say on that than I already say. However, I have seen that there is a tremendous amount that needs to be said, and that people have not heard before, concerning intersexual relations and their effect upon our society. That’s why I started this blog. And so that is what I address here.

I have great respect for Roissy, for Heartiste, and for Dalrock. I even have a fair amount of respect for GBFM. We are all part of the same great cultural battle for the mind and soul of the West, which has been deeply corrupted by Marxism, by equalitarianism, by secular humanism, by atheism, and by feminism. But the fact that GBFM’s heart may be more or less in the right place does not excuse the abandonment of the truth.

There is only one Christianity and that is the one defined by the Lordship, not merely the teachings, of Man’s Savior, Jesus Christ.

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Throughout all this the commenters were very active. Here’s a few comments I want to highlight.

Aquinas Dad gave a good practical list for self-improvement techniques. I look forward to his book:

I told you, above, what to do. You need a step by step? Sure!
1) Set a regular schedule. When you get up, when you go to sleep, etc. so that you get good sleep as often as you can. Stick to it
2) Eat regular, healthy meals.
3) Sit down and decide what you want out of life. Make a list of, oh, the top three things you want. Now, take each thing and divide it into the steps you think you need to take to get there. For example, ‘I want to own a home with 3 bedrooms in a safe neighborhood’ – locate neighborhoods; price homes; calculate the down payment and the mortgage payments; calculate how long it will take you to save for the down payment; etc.
4) Start working on the first step of each goal.
– keep the goals written down and on you at all times. Look at them once a day
-every other week sit down and examine your progress. Write down how you are doing and how you can improve, if you need to
-once each three months re-evaluate your plan – were you too ambitious? Too cautious? Adjust as you need
-every six months re-evaluate your goals: should you change them?
5) If you are not social join groups and attend. Start with something simple like, oh, book readings. You can avoid a lot of talking (sometimes *all* talking) and get used to being around strangers in a low-stress public space. Then try something a bit more interactive like an evening cooking class for adults. Work up to groups that are part of shared interests, like rafting, or books, or anime, or whatever.
6) look at what you waste time on. Ever catch yourself flipping through the channels because nothing is on? yeah, stop that. read books; good books. Read classics, non-fiction, stuff related to your goals, etc. Do you have a friend that just complains, complains, complains and isn’t there for you? yeah – spend time with other people.
7) Exercise every day even if it is just walking around the block at first. Make it part of your schedule to replace the time wasters you threw out. Make a separate *reasonable* plan to improve your fitness over time. Adjust it like you do your other goals.
8) Stop lying. Start with ‘to yourself’. Don’t be rude, but be honest. “How do I look?” “I like you better in red”; “Do you think I should quit my job?” “Yes/no”; etc.
9) Spend two months tracking all of your expenses. Every nickel. Write it all down. Now, make a budget that gets rid of all the stupid waste and stick to it. Save. Avoid debt as best you can.
10) Think about every purchase you are making. Do you need it or want it? Is it part of your goals or not? Is there a way to get this cheaper?
11) Pick something that makes you nervous/scared. Now do something that makes you confront it. Afraid of heights? Take a footbridge every week. When that doesn’t make you nervous anymore move up to, oh, walking a cliff-edge trail, whatever. Then move on to the next thing.
12) Remember those group activities, above? Well, use them to get to know women without planning on dating or sleeping with them. Learn what you really want and like in women (If you aren’t familiar with women you might be wrong/not know).
13) Once you feel you know what you like and want ask a woman to coffee or something just to talk. Get to know her better on this outing. Try to simply enjoy it and try to have her enjoy the time, too. Be up-front you are interested in knowing her better, thank you.
Now, do it again with a different woman. And then another. Don’t hide this (no lying includes no deception) just honestly tell them you want to know them better.
The goal is to make sure you really do know what you like and want and that you can actually detect it in a woman.
14) Now that you are sure you know what you want [side note. BE HONEST about this. You might think you *should* like, oh, blondes with huge tracts of land, but if you really like shy brunettes under 5’4″ well, there you are. Don’t lie to yourself) start looking for it. Continue to enjoy your time in groups, continue to build friendships, but look for what you want.

Earl (get a blog) writes on the nature of game:

As addressed earlier, the reason why Christians are going to game sites is because they TELL them a system. It may not always work and I do believe it is a placebo but it stresses doing something and points out the dark nature of females which has been well covered up by the other side. The advice on which women to avoid alone is worth the reads. Consider all the “man up and marry the slut” shaming from Christian leaders…those aren’t prudent woman. Now I have a good filter to know what a prudent wife is should the Lord give me that gift.

I was not given anything explicitly from my father, the church, society, etc…other than “be yourself and be good”. Everything was more or less implied…but that is tough to get when you have so many different areas of propaganda being thrown at you and most are to ruin your masculinity. How are we supposed to know that when nobody explicitly points that out in the churches? Do most men outside the sphere realize how much they are being emasculated daily? Do most men know what they are doing that shows active emasculation? I doubt it because I see it all the time in the area I live. The only ones that haven’t are like fish in water…they’ve always been that way and never consider that others are outside that water.

And I say you can separate the good from the bad given that you are asking God for wisdom…fornicating is sinning, getting your butt off the couch and working out is good. Passive aggressive tricks with women is bad…going up, overcoming your fear, having outcome independence and talking to a woman you are interested in is good. Game causes a man to be effeminate through doing, and many other place tell men to be effeminate by being.

To sum up…pray and ask God for the tools you need in your particular situation (because He knows more than you or anybody else will)…then stop being afraid, get off your butt, and use those tools to the best of your abilities. I can give my list of what I do as ideas…but it will not be your list. The common theme of the lists is that it better produce.

Chad writes on the mission:

God is not a system. You don’t put in a quarter and expect to get a gumball or candy. You especially cannot expect to have any sort of Justice served to you in this fallen world; only in the perfection of Heaven can you find true Justice and Mercy.

Is that to say that you should not try? No, if anything, you should try harder. Take up your cross and learn what it is to be Christian. You have no foresight on if God is using this time to form you into a better husband for your future wife, if he’s giving you the tools for your future marriage to prosper instead of falling into ruin, or any other of the numerous mysteries God might have in store for you.

Stop using a fallen world as an excuse. Use every gift God gave you to collect more for his harvest, and realize that every time you go out of the house to do that, any single female you meet could be your future wife. Stop and talk to them. Take your time, have patience, and give your Godly Masculinity to the world. Your cup will run empty. And God will refill it fuller than it was before.

Beyond the responses to my post, the foundations of Christian masculinity are being laid, but this post already huge, so I’ll address this in a post to come.

Alternatives to Game

Lately, discussion of game and Christianity has been occurring in the Orthosphere, led by GBFM, Donal, Zippy, and Cane. I don’t disagree with many of the conclusions of the anti-gamers. There is probably a lot of the placebo effect to “game”. Although, there is also evidence that dark triad traits, which game attempts to mimic, are attractive, while being a nice guy isn’t.

I do find though,  that a lot of the Christian, “is game acceptable?”, debate really boils down to defining “game”. Nobody comes to terms before discussion, so the conversation almost always turns into a bunch of people talking past each other.

I myself have gone back and forth on game.

Either way, chasing flags and notches is an empty, joyless, if sometimes pleasurable, way to live. Roosh’s personal reflections over the last year or so provide ample example of that. No Christian should participate in it, and, even according to game advocates, even most non-Christians are simply not suited for it and would be better of finding an average girl and marrying. “Game” in the gimmicky, manipulative, player sense is something to avoid; at best it is a stop-gap.

But, men should instead focus on building themselves up. Instead of focusing on gimmicks, men should focus on improving themselves and being the kind of man who would have the kind of life they desire. Focus on the core, what some call inner game, and you will be attractive to the type of woman you want in your life.

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This being said, I don’t think all game is a placebo. While I avoid the immoral and gimmicky parts of game, some of the more straightforward and practical social skills and body language advice is useful.  One of the earlier posts which made me take Roissy seriously, was this post on contraposta. Simply standing differently, and having a way I could purposefully stand, did wonders for my confidence. Just off the top of my head, other such tactical posts that helped me immensely include Simon Grey’s eye contact post and Roissy’s statement-statement-question.

Little practical things like these can work wonders and give socially awkward men like me something firm to hold onto.

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All this being said though, whether you are pro-game, or anti-game, there is something you can agree on. So, what if, as Zippy says:

Game (understood as the pickup artist’s toolkit specifically) is actually pretty lousy in terms of effectiveness, right on par with placebo.  Doing something (and learning from the experience, and being persistent, and building confidence) is far better than doing nothing; but once you extract taking action at all, persistence, confidence, and learning through experience from the equation, the part of Game that is left over (that is, Game itself) – at least according to the “best of the best” PUA themselves – doesn’t do much for your percentages.

Let’s say game is mostly a placebo. Let’s say that its only real effect is to give awkward guys something to latch onto so they have a place to start developing confidence and acting. Let’s say, game is simply doing something.

This leads directly to the question, what else is there? As I’ve said before:

There is nothing else.

If you are an awkward, nerdy male, the only people willing and able to teach you practical advice for attracting women are the PUAs. I’ve checked. There is simply no one outside the manosphere teaching men how to meet a pleasant, moderately pretty girl for a stable long-term relationship.

I’ve read a number of Christian books and articles on dating, but they all assume a woman is attracted to you. They are either discussions of what kind of dating is appropriate and exhortations against sin or man up articles on how to avoid sex in relationships, how to avoid leading women on, and how to be firm in your intentions. There is almost no practical advice on how to actually attract a girl in first place so that the other advice has any relevance.

(For any Christian manospherians reading this, here’s a great book idea: write a guide to help awkward Christian guys attract a Christian wife. Market it in the Christian culture industry and you’d make a killing. I’d write it, but I’m not qualified at this point.)

Going outside the Christian stuff, everywhere else you look the socially awkward male is given the same advice: be yourself and be a nice guy, she’ll come… eventually.

Guess what?

We already do that: it doesn’t work. If it did work, we wouldn’t be looking for advice.

For women (and church leaders and others who may care): if you do not want awkward guys going to PUA’s for advice on attracting women, offer a viable alternative.

The only reason I started taking guys like Roissy or Roosh even remotely seriously was because they were the first people I found anywhere who gave enough of a shit to give some practical, useful advice. I haven’t adopted either game or playerhood, but I have tried some of their more morally neutral advice and it has been useful. (I’m now more influenced by the Athol/Dalrock approach).

How royally screwed up is it that self-proclaimed assholes like Roissy and Mentu are the only ones honest and selfless enough to give practical advice to the awkward guy looking for companionship (even if they mock us while they do it)?

Zippy, GBFM, Cane, and the rest can criticize game all they want, they might even be, probably are, right. But it doesn’t matter.

There is no alternative.

If I, as an awkward, nerdy Christian man, want practical, actionable advice on finding and attracting a nice Christian wife, game is the only place to go.

Without the game advice of these “low value dirt bags and sexual garbage collectors”, I never would have been able to approach this girl. I never would have gotten this date. I’ve had more dates in the last year than in my whole life prior, and a lot of it comes down to the advice and help I got from these “dirt bags.”

Without the advice and encouragement of them, without the practice from my previous dates, I probably would have awkwardly blown out the first date with the girl I’m currently courting.

None of these dates or approaches involved gimmicks, sleaze, or even anything resembling the popular perception of game. They were all simple, straightforward, well-intentioned interactions that nobody would or could think ill of.

But game advice gave me something to latch onto. It gave me practical steps I could take to improve myself. Was it a placebo? Possibly. But some of it was real. (The simple advice to not follow around a girl you like like a love-sick puppy alone was worth its weight in gold).

It was something practical I could do to improve myself and become better at social interactions with.

Roissy, Roosh, et al. may be self-professed degenerate scum but what is Zippy* providing?

This is the problem. What are the Christian man’s alternatives?

My Omega’s Guide was a start. I tried to make a practical guide to self-improvement anyone could use while avoiding “game”. Donal puts out a lot good theory, Chad’s stories are excellent sources of some Christian attraction principles put in practice, Vox throws out a fair amount of Christian game, and Athol puts out good, but non-Christian, advice for married men. A few other Christian blogs from my roll put out the occasional advice post.

Of these, Vox and Athol are the only names even remotely well-known and the only ones who have successfully found a wife and there sites is the gamiest and least Christian, respectively, of them all.

The awkward Christian man’s sources of information for attracting a wife without game are few unknowns who have plucked the pearls from the vast library of information the degenerates put out and have tried to apply it, but haven’t even found a wife for themselves.

So, give us something. Where is the church? Where is the help from the pro-marriage, anti-game moralizers to help us?

I don’t need another exhortation to man up, I’ve had enough of those. I don’t need another post telling me the greatness of marriage. I don’t need another lecture on servant-leadership; I’m drowning in those. I don’t need another sermon on avoiding fornication; I’ve been listening to those since before I knew what sex was. I don’t need more don’t do this, don’t do that; I need more do this.

Where is the practical Christian advice that will help me find a wife? Where can I find advice so the good Christian girl’s description of me to her friends isn’t “ew”?

Without that, all the rest of this debate over game is just noise and thunder signifying nothing. Awkward Christian men will go the degenerate dirt bags, because our choices are either try to pick the occasional nugget of truth from the hedonists and hope we don’t become corrupted by them or live the rest of our lives in grinding loneliness and sexual frustration.

If you don’t like game, give us an alternative.

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Being opposed to complaining without providing a solution, I will point any Christian men reading this and looking for answers to my Omega’s Guide. It should provide some good advice I’ve painfully learned through the last 7 or 8 years. At some point, I’m going to arrange it into a self-published ebook for easier distribution.

Once I’m married and can speak with real authority on the subject, I plan to write a book on finding and attracting a Christian wife (probably cribbing heavily from the Omega’s Guide). I might even try hocking this to the various Christian publishers.

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* I realize this is unfair to Zippy, and mean no offence, he’s not making a relationship blog and he isn’t professing to, but neither is anyone else.