Christian Masculinity

I asked what the Christian alternatives to game were. Whether in response to me or progressing independently, the masculine orthosphere has started providing the foundations. Rather than drown my most recent Lightning Round, I decided to put it all here. Besides, this is important enough it deserves its own post rather than getting lost.

This last week has been a flurry of activity and the foundations of Christian masculinity are being laid; or rather, the old truths of men lost to modernism are being reborn. (Read the entire posts, not just the blurbs. I’m serious).

I’m not going to add much myself here, but I think a collation of the beginnings will be a good thing to be able to refer to later.

First, Chad has a new blog who’s mission is clear:

The modern world does not know masculinity… The modern world does not know God… It certainly has no clue what Godly Masculinity is.

Let us begin to change that. To pull Masculinity out of the Depths, the sewers, the refuse where it was left stagnant to rot. Let us go into the traditional wisdom of our Fathers to find God again in the Wilderness, and clear a place there for him so that we can learn, worship, and obey.

Let us, as men, find what it means to have a Godly Masculinity in our soul. It will be hard, painstaking, and might break us. It will bring us Faith, Hope, and Charity when we are remade as Sons of the Father.

He also defines the masculine:

A man is masculine when he has acquired the ability to change the world around him. The more he is able to change the world, the more masculine potential he has.

Simon Grey outlines God’s basic purpose for man:

Now, I’m not a trained theologian, but it sounds like God’s basic purpose for man consists of leaving mom and dad, getting married, having children, and working. It’s too bad MRAs weren’t around back them to explain to God that he just wanted men to “man up” and that this was nothing more than feminism couched in shaming language. Perhaps God would have gotten it right had he been advised by MRAs, and consequently told Adam to live with his parents, remain single, and live in a virtual reality world instead of working. That would have prevented an untold number of problems.

Donal discards game as an infirm foundation upon which to build a toolbox and begins to rebuild a foundation for Christian masculinity:

That is the graphic representation of it. I think that most of the work on this project will be focused on the Frame aspect, what I currently refer to as Sophroneo (thanks to Lyn87 for cluing me in to that). Creating a foundation of Masculine Godliness is mostly a personal venture that will take time and effort, but not be all that difficult. A good understanding of how feminism has corrupted Christianity will go a long way. The Toolkit aspect is mostly combing through Game teaching and the Classics to find out what is valuable and what isn’t when it comes to attracting women, then sifting for what is compatible with Christianity and weaving it all together. Adoration should come naturally enough when everything else is put together.

(I have a post on Sophroneo I started a couple weeks back and temporarily shelved. I plan to complete it soon).

That’s brings us to Deep Strength. Long-time commenter, he’s recently started his own blog. He has been simply cranking out the posts and is building the framework almost single-handedly. Here he re-establishes the foundations of Christian masculinity, working off Donal’s work:

Each of these qualities build on each other. Out of faith comes moral excellence to progress in God-likeness. And by now knowing what is good (and the one that is good is God) we gain the knowledge of the difference between the flesh and the Spirit. From that we exercise self control which is our free will to choose the Spirit or the flesh, and battling with the flesh over a long period of time we have endurance and patience in the faith. This is what godly masculinity is. Out of faith comes the knowledge and ability to be Christ-like and the application of Christ-likeness.

He sets up the theoretical framework for Christian masculine confidence:

Parrhesia is about a external boldness, especially through the spoke word (rheo), the same word that God used to create the heavens the earth.

Peitho is about an internal confidence, by which we have salvation.

As I discussed heavily in my previous post To game or not to game, we know that out of our hearts come our actions. Therefore, we know that an “internal confidence” must be developed before the “external boldness.”

Thus, Parrhesia is therefore a product of Peitho.

As a Christian man speaking to my brothers in Christ, I would encourage you not to look to develop the “self confidence” that the world loves and that is an illusion of attractiveness, but to love God with all of your heart, soul, and mind/might. This is the confidence that we are called to in Christ that will be attractive to Christian women.

God doesn’t owe you anything (with a correction):

The habits that you build that encourage growth (reading your Bible, prayer, fasting, listening to God, serving others) are self perpetuating and build responsibility. Likewise, the habits that you don’t create in the list above are also self perpetuating. Out of the mindset come actions and actions for habits.

Therefore, riddle me this.

How can God entrust many “Christian nice guys” with wives when they aren’t personally responsible for growth in their own lives and don’t have experience serving others?

Always be on your game:

The always be on “your” game mindset is actually a good one for a Christian to have, except instead of focusing it on “yourself” and always being on “your” game, you should be always on “God’s game.”

Now, all change is hard to effect at first. However, all change will become habit after doing it for extended periods of time. For example, it takes about 4-6 weeks before doing something everyday becomes a habit. This ranges from anything from nutrition, to exercise, to posture, to changes in attitude, to changes in personality, to any other habits that you want to develop.

Change happens slowly, but as you reinforce it everyday it will come. Don’t be afraid to exchange poor habits for good habits. Change for God.

Always be on God’s game.

The fundamental nature of Christianity and how it applies to masculinity and finding a wife:

Therefore, as men of God striving to grow in Him, those of us who want to grow in godly masculinity and who seek a wife need to do two things:

  1. Master our desires so that we are not enslaved by them. This is an exercise of free will, and it is fundamental to the nature of humans. Will you give into temptation or not? Will you choose godliness over evil?
  2. Start to look outwardly — to give freely as Christ has given for us — showing the mastery of Christ in our own body as a witness to others.

To master these concepts is the essence of godly manhood because we know that women look to men for leadership.

The mastery over the desires of the flesh results in elimination of neediness and validation. This changes how you act and what you say, and it will make you more attractive to women.

To master your neediness for a woman is to understand the function of wife to a husband. She is not a completion of you, just a helpmeet to you.

When you expect a woman to meet a need that she is not created to meet, she will become unhappy because she bears a greater burden of responsibility that was not meant to be.

This is the mindset needed to understand the role of a wife in godly marriage, and it will pay dividends in your own search.

On self improvement vs. God improvement:

However, the biggest trap that a Christian man may fall into is that he may get too focused on the improvement “itself,” and neglect to leverage any of the improvement for the gospel or to obey God.

This is the difference between me telling my brothers in Christ to eat right and workout because it will make them more attractive to women, but to eat right and workout because God hates gluttony and slothfulness. Intentions matters. The fact that it may make women more attracted is just a nice side effect of obeying God’s commands.

Therefore, strip off the old habits which are fruitless. Those of laziness, watching TV, surfing the Internet, being fearful of men and women, and the like. And put on new habits to embrace the calling of an ambassador for Christ.

Set your heart on God, and grow in a way that will nurture — or as the PUAs say… bring value to — His kingdom.

Even if you only give a part of your self “improvement” to God, He will take what you give Him and use it for his glory. Then you will know what it means to know that He first called you, and be willing to give him your most important resource that you own: time.

A Christian man leveraging improvement to get a wife is not seeking God first but focusing on the “self.”

Conquer your fear:

So, even though I may fail at times. Even though I may look foolish at times. Even though it’s difficult for me to see the work that God is doing in me. I know that God’s peace within me, my faith in him, and the boldness in how I should act will carry over into a Godly confidence. A confidence in God that is worth more than anything I could hope for and which will allow me to develop into a godly masculine man that is able to walk into the things that God has willed for me in the future.

That alone should be reason enough to start to want to conquer your fears. But if you need extra motivation, a lack of fear has the nice side of effect of being attractive to women. Women can smell fear, like neediness, from a mile away and are repulsed by it.

As you begin to conquer your fear of men rather than God you will find that you will become a godly masculine man that both Christian and non-Christian men and women respect and admire.

He has two posts on Christian nice guys focusing on their neediness and their stunted growth:

This is what Christian men need to learn — don’t change your behaviors for a woman. If you’re going to change your behaviors, then take off the old and put on the new. Do it for God as a new creation in Christ. Never change yourself for a woman.

Women know if you’re saying and doing things because you are trying to impress them. They’ll think it will be amusing and will accept your help. Often with a smile. They’ll thank you profusely. But they won’t be attracted to you. If you’re going to help women do it because you are willing to serve them as a brother in Christ. Women can detect the difference — the neediness of approval and validation that you seek from her — because it will show in your body language. Women are more in tune with subtle social cuing.

Masculinity is forged in difficult situations. To overcome difficult situations, you have to put yourself in uncomfortable situations because the stress of such situations is what is going to force you to adapt or die trying. Whether there is a success or failure there is a learning experience, and it is from a learning experience from which masculinity is going to take hold in the fertile soil and sprout.

However, this is the key. Most boys as they’re learning are willing to fail as they do things. Yet, there is encouragement from the father to keep trying and eventually they succeed. If you challenge boys to impossible situations they will ultimately give up and stop trying eventually often times because they do not know what to do which is making them fail. This is why throwing Christian nice guys into man up marriage situations is a horrendous idea.

On leaving her better than when you found her:

In conclusion, we know that to “leave her better than you found her” you need to:

  1. Let her know that your intention is engagement and/or marriage, but that dating is not a committed relationship so she can “guard her heart.”
  2. Do not act improperly towards her, especially physically.
  3. Start the relationship off right by leading her spiritually which will increase her attraction and respect for you, among other things you should be leading.

The very fact that you if you start leading her spiritually will show you if she is compatible with you, and if she is willing to learn from you.

This will make it exceedingly clear almost right away whether she is a woman who is worthy of marriage, or one who is given over to the things of the world.

She will grow spiritually, if she is willing, and will be better off than how you found her even if you two are not a match.

This is only possible as a Christian masculine man who is walking with God.

****

On the other hand, some Christians are defending game. Keoni links it to the Austrian economics concept of praxeology:

While I am not trying to speak for anyone else here, I do believe the defining line between those of us in the MAndrosphere who are nominally Christian and advocate Christian Marriage (Vox, Dalrock et al), and see no conflict between Game and Christian morality, versus all the other Christians who are up in arms about it and repeatedly denounce it, is that those of us in favor, simply view game as a Praxeology; it is not a hard science, nor is it a moral code to live by. Rather, it is simply using deductive reasoning to come up with action axiom’s to describe the hows and whys of human intersexual attraction and mating behaviors.

Vox agrees with Keoni:

With regards to objective Z, as Mises wrote in Human Action, only the acting man can identify the reasons for his actions. So, to claim that Game is immoral, or anti-Christian, is to make a fundamental category error. One might as reasonably claim that a shovel is sinful or learning mathematical equations is anti-Hindu. One can criticize the objectives that Heartiste, or Dalrock, or I seek, and indeed, many feminists and equalitarians and white knights do. But there is nothing even remotely objectionable from any coherent moral standard about the mere knowledge of Game and its mechanisms.

RPP pulls out the Bible and Game of Thrones to defend game:

Did you get that?? ACCORDING TO KNOWLEDGE. Knowledge about how women work. And because she is weaker than you. Your strength, your knowledge, your confidence, your leadership, your dominance. These are the qualities that lead to tingles, and tingles are what lead to submission. She’s not gonna read the Bible and get wet over you. She’s gonna respond to how you treat her. Just like God said she would.

****

Reading through this, I’ve been convicted; they speak to some recent personal experiences. I’ve been slacking on my spiritual growth and I’ve allowed myself to become comfortable on my level of improvement in other areas. Time to increase my efforts.

I’ve also changed my blog roll. If you think you’re in the wrong category and would like to be moved, feel free to leave a comment or message me.

81 comments

  1. Deep Strength has written up a blog storm lately. I envy his ability to write that well, that quickly. His expansion on my pyramid was especially insightful in my view.

  2. Hmm, after a solid start, things have return to the baseline of what Christianity has become:

    Endless, words, almost hamsterizations only from a male pov, “memorize this, pay homage to that, internalize, internalize, internalize:”

    I suspect the reasons why such things come up among Christian men is a reading lesson, w/o means of implementation, is merely a lecture

    Think of the recounting of Christ meeting the Samaritan Woman at the well as a sort of the EMOTIONAL sensitivity that Masculine Christians should emulate.

    If that recounting is viewed w/a Game frame of reference, a modernization that is attainable for Christian Male youth can happen, or think of Jezebel when she was finally called to account in view of a “alpha male” frame of reference.

    In fact it was as far from “white knight” behavior as one can imagine..doggy dinner so to say

    This is where doughty theologians and youth have a disconnect in my pov, I side with the theologians, tbh, we are merely seeing a rebirth into the world of the norms and morays of the ancient world, only this time w/pop psychology lathered on top to justify increasingly immoral and amoral behavior

    The interface however, of the theologians is hopelessly bogged down and inaccessible, to young Christian men.

    I refuse to call it “good” to create a generation equipped with manipulative tools whose sole purpose is to have sex with scores of women, in a lesser way, quoting and not explicating why that is a bad idea to do so, but NOT equipping youth to compete is tying hands behind backs

  3. I too, wish I could write at the speed Deep Strength did. Sadly, I’ve been busy putting out numerous fires and dealing with explanations of thoughts and beliefs to friends on facebook that have not been exposed to such things before.

    Luckily, I was planning on this and catered the blog to it. I’ll be working on Christian masculinity from a Masculinity 101 perspective, then Godly Masculinity 101, and on. Deep Strength is like Christian Masculinity 401 – he’s writing for a completely different audience and I love it.

    Thanks for linking and updating the blog roll. I hope to see you all there, and that iron can sharpen iron.

  4. @ FN

    Thanks for the links.

    @ Padre99

    That’s what we’re trying to do now (or at least I’m trying to do anyway)… make things more accessible from a Christian perspective first with framework and second with practicals.

    I think what most Christian men, at least those in the manosphere, are confused about is the difference between the heart and actions. You want both your heart and actions to align with God.

    For example, maintaining boundaries and leadership in a relationship of a player vs a Christian husband may look the same, but the heart is at a different place in each of these individuals. Likewise, a Christian husband can have his heart in the right place, but can do the wrong thing such as what most marriage counselors suggest with compromise, capitulation, and bargaining.

    It is hard to see how to align both heart and actions.for most Christian men, but once we understand the framework on how to do that then we can see implementation come about. That’s one of the big things I can show you in practical format such as from this post that FN linked in the other post:

    http://deepstrength.wordpress.com/2014/01/21/improving-your-public-and-conversational-speaking/

    You do things to please God and learn more about Him and build your relationship with Him.. that can also overlap and help you in your relationships with others.

  5. Great blog post Deep Strength, my only disagreement is, and it is difficult to put into words.

    So I’ll be simple:

    Talking to a female one may be interested in, negates the sort of Gospel Mission one references.

    Think of it this way, is one Evangelizing, or bringing up the possibility of a coffee date to get to know each other so personal qualities can come forth?

    What happens if one is an untalented Evangelist?

    In this way it is little different from running a PUA script, there is no conversation, only Evangelizing.

    Christ reduced to MLM marketing and conversion rates..how nice.

    Probably not what most will want to hear, however the Assisi “evangelize at all times, if neccessary, use words”

    I speak the truth here, just being “solid” and being willing to call it like you see it, looking completely into a woman’s eyes w/love (not lust) is far far more evangelizing then quoting Jn 3:16 constantly. As I’ve said, it is very difficult to explicate and not demonstrate how that works.

    THIS is one of the reasons why I’m so against the PUA/Cad “go in for the kill (sex)!” line of thinking, it creates trainwrecks for the female and cyincism beyond belief..just being solid creates almost comical attraction.

    To simplify, is one more oriented to Billy Graham, or Johnny Cash?

    I further think the advice to “never pay for another man’s children” is not good advice, and rarely examined “game” advice. If Eleazar is not showing up w/ baggage train of camels to find the vestal virgin wife, neither is the liklihood of a plethora of perfect females likely to show up w/no baggage at all

    Society is like a rain storm, it rains on everyone, the righteous and the wicked so to say

  6. As for Simon,
    I *am* a trained theologian and he damn near nailed it perfectly. Just add ‘to know, love, and serve God’ to what Man is meant to do and the caveat that ‘some are called to serve God directly without a wife’ and you’re done.
    He also saw the other clearly – of *Eve* was the one who ate the apple and gave it to Adam why is it called ‘the sin of Adam’? Adam heard the same rules as Eve did. When Eve came to him with the apple and he did as she suggested he *failed to lead*. One theologian I studied under mused ,
    “What if Adam had, instead, rebuked her saying ‘You have broken the law of God! You must repent!’? We’d probably all be in Eden. Instead he said, ‘OK, honey, if you say so’ and now we live in Satan’s shadow.”

  7. Don’t want to let too much out of the bag…but game is built on sand. It’s time the Christians start bringing the wind and rain to this…and show those that believe in game that they should build on rock.

  8. To quote my own blog post on the ethics of game:


    Game has dark roots by Christian standards….

    Some will argue that we should ignore the information provided by game due to its origins. The modern legal system does this. If evidence in a court case is gathered incorrectly, the jury is not allowed to use that information to make a decision. We’ve all seen court cases where the verdict was wrong—so wrong that everyone in the courtroom knew it— because information was excluded from consideration. Willfully blinding ourselves in this way (to the information provided by game) would seem to be the height of legalism.

    Now the critics of game do have one major point correct: failure to filter Game insights through a biblical filter will lead a man to go astray.

    That doesn’t mean we should “play it safe” and avoid all knowledge that isn’t found in the Bible. Is the Amish attitude of “if it isn’t mentioned in the Bible, then we should pretend it doesn’t exist” really the best road?

    The Bible contains concepts that are true across all cultures and any period of history. Game describes the specific culture we live in today. A man needs to have a firm grasp of both.

  9. @ Padre99

    That’s the thing though. No one is a talented conversationalist or speaker when they’re born. It’s a characteristic that is learned. Yes, some people have it easier than others because they are extroverts and are compelled to talk to other people. But that’s no different than having other traits such as intelligence or athletic ability which not everyone is blessed with but still using those to the utmost of what God gave you.

    I think one of the posts FN put in the above OP adequately addresses how you should be interacting with Christian women in terms of getting to know them better. See if you can lead them spiritually with your focus on Jesus. If they’re willing to follow then you may have a potential wife on your hands. If not then probably not.

    http://deepstrength.wordpress.com/2014/01/18/leave-her-better-than-how-you-found-her/

  10. @8to12

    Yes and no.

    To have some insights require compromise. For example, I could say to myself: “well. I just want to learn about the different techniques and position for sex since I can’t have any right now… so I’m going to watch pornography to do it. If I don’t masturbate or focus on lust rather gaining knowledge then it’s not sinful.”

    That may be true… but like Paul says in Corinthians 10 about this:

    (NASB) 23 All things are lawful, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful, but not all things edify.

    (NLT) 23 You say, “I am allowed to do anything”–but not everything is good for you. You say, “I am allowed to do anything”–but not everything is beneficial.

    (NIV) 23 “I have the right to do anything,” you say–but not everything is beneficial. “I have the right to do anything”–but not everything is constructive.

    Certainly knowledge is not necessarily evil (The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge Prov 1:7), but the method to which it is gained especially through action can start leading someone down the wrong path.

    “Is it constructive for me to continuing reading a lot of PUA blogs about how to seduce women but never put it into practice?”

    Or rather, if you were in Jesus’ time… is it OK to hang around the tax collectors and sinner to gain knowledge from them… as opposed to evangelizing them?

    It’s an interesting question and I think many words can be spilled over a question like this on both sides of the topic. I think it depends highly upon the person and their ability to resist temptation,… but why put a temptation in front of people who you may not know can resist it or not?

  11. “but why put a temptation in front of people who you may not know can resist it or not?”

    Regarding this phrase…

    In the manosphere I see more ex-church going Christians who are now PUAs and players than I do those who turned back to God such as Donal, Chad, Earl, FN I assume, myself, etc.

  12. @DS,

    You seem to be arguing the extreme.

    Learning anything about Game would result in viewing pornography, becoming a PUA, and fornicating with random women. The only protection is to 100% avoid any knowledge of game.

    @DS said: “Or rather, if you were in Jesus’ time… is it OK to hang around the tax collectors and sinner to gain knowledge from them… as opposed to evangelizing them?”

    But if you have zero understanding of what a tax collector does or the environment they work in, you’re going to have a hard time getting them to listen to anything you say. I’m old enough to have had a few moments where men gave me “fatherly advice” and afterwards I thought “he’s clueless about my situation; why the heck should I listen to anything he’s saying?”

    “I’m sending you out like sheep among wolves. So be as cunning as snakes but as innocent as doves.” Matt 10:16

    It’s notable that the snake is used as a metaphor for the Devil in the Bible.

    I think there’s a middle ground. We don’t want to be the equivalent of a fish swimming around clueless about the existence of water, then being surprised when a wave washed him ashore. We “swim” in a cultural ocean. Choosing to ignore it’s existence and learn nothing about it won’t prevent it from affecting us, it will only prevent us from protecting ourselves against it.

  13. A+ for all the men doing this good work.

    As for the Austrian Economics-based defenders (Keoni, Vox, libertarians), I’m skeptical of taking the theories of materialist Jews like Mises & Rothbard (speaking of which, Rand as well) and applying them to all of life. Their theories are not just tools, but mechanisms to reinforce the lessons of a capitalist mammon-worshipping society: everything is to be calculated economically, with a materialistic utilitarianism. That is not a good thing.

  14. To me, the juxtaposed pyramids explain it better than anything else.

    The dirty little secret as to why most Christian men find themselves where they are now is in the second tier or “lift” of the pyramid.

    Most men get either:

    1. Command of Scripture and God’s will; OR

    2. Knowledge of human nature and lusts of the flesh.

    You have to have BOTH if we’re going to present “alternatives” to Game.

    It’s BOTH/AND, not either/or. Men and women must be taught BOTH. BOTH must be acknowledged because both are part and parcel of humanity. And ultimately, knowledge of human nature and lusts of the flesh must be mastered; or they become one’s master.

    Churchians and Christians are going to have to get past their squeamishness and discomfort on sex, attraction, how attraction works, and all the nasty truths the Gamers tell us about, if any headway is going to be made. For example, Christian men will have to tell their sons the truth about girls and women:

    They need to be led. They’re emotion-based. They make decisions based on feelings. They are mercilessly hypergamous. They will shit test you. They will test your mettle as a man. They are doing it to see if you will stand up for yourself. You need to bust a move and be assertive and pursue a woman you want. You are going to get rejected a lot, so you may as well get used to it and not get butthurt over it.

    Christian women need to be told the truth about men:

    Men are attracted to youth and looks. This is normal. Men are not evil, base or perverted for being attracted to youth and beauty. Young Christian girl, if you are not getting approached or asked out, it’s probably because you’re not attractive enough, you’re not nice enough or you’re not available enough. You need to work on this. You need to lose weight, grow your hair out, wear nice clothes and some decent makeup. You might be a bitch, and if you are, you need to be nicer. If you really want to find a man and marry, then you need to get serious about it while you’re young. Hint: 30 is NOT young when it comes to starting to think about getting married. Men want sex. This is normal. It is not evil, base or perverted.

  15. @ 8to12

    That’s precisely the point — I put out an extreme example on purpose.

    My contention is to first build a solid foundational of Christian masculinity and concepts and ingrain that into men. Then you start adding in examples of what is good and what is evil and the reason behind it. This can be illustrated in the cultural context. Namely, get the heart right before God first, then add on experience, knowledge, and everything filtered through the Word.

    The simple fact of the matter right now is that we have a lot of “game” debate where we debate whether it is good or not, but the only thing out there at the moment for Christian men is “churchianity” and what fathers have taught their sons (if they had fathers at all) for better and for worse. While we debate on the merits of “knowledge of game” vs “application of game” there’s pretty much no one writing about the concepts of Christian masculinity and how to build it.

    Let me put it this way. If I’m a personal trainer with a client that wants to lose weight then I don’t go tell him that exercise is the way to lose weight. Exercise certainly help: some forms more extreme than others with higher risk of injuries, but the primary focus for losing weight is modulating your diet to hit a caloric deficit. You first focus on diet because that is what is going to help you lose weight… then you can later expound on the merits of exercise to help them

    Personal trainers being a Christian man
    Clients being you mentoring a Christian nice guy
    Losing weight meaning becoming a Christian masculine man
    Exercise being knowledge and/or application of game or techniques
    Diet being grounded in the Word and your relationship with God

    Before you build the house you must first ensure a firm foundation not a shaky one.

  16. 8to12:

    This is one of the missing pieces in really understanding what the NT/Ancient Church was facing. Roman society was unbelievably debauched even by today’s declining standards. For example Brothels were on corners of some districts the way Taco Bells are in “modern” society.

    W/o that context, Christianity continues to drill down into itself via referencing Scriptures of that era in the current cultural climate.

    IE, becoming a Puritans’ Puritan.

    You want to hear a topic never discussed from the Scriptures?

    Abraham basically pimping out Sarah in Egypt to the Pharaoh..will not be touched w/a ten foot pole. It goes against the Puritans’ Puritan narrative.

    DS:

    My question from your “leave her better then you found her” thoughts is this : “Why isn’t she should leave him better then she found him”? Putting all the onus on the man is yet another version of “suck it up and take it” Which is one of the reasons “We” are were we are atm.

    PUA’s for all of their faults, at least realize that pov is merely one more social construct meant to make Men into supplicants to the world and wisely reject it out of hand..ie..they took the Red Pill.

  17. @ Padre99

    My question from your “leave her better then you found her” thoughts is this : “Why isn’t she should leave him better then she found him”? Putting all the onus on the man is yet another version of “suck it up and take it” Which is one of the reasons “We” are were we are atm.

    PUA’s for all of their faults, at least realize that pov is merely one more social construct meant to make Men into supplicants to the world and wisely reject it out of hand..ie..they took the Red Pill.

    I certainly agree with that. The reason why we “man up” is not for women but for God. This is exemplified in two separate states:

    1. The only person you can change is yourself. I can’t make other men change as much as I can make other women change. My obligation to God is to be the best man I can be irrespective of if I do end up married.

    2. It’s clear that a “Christian” woman who does not accept spiritual teaching from a Christian man prior to marriage are not going to magically submit in marriage. It’s an automatic vetting tool.

    Women have their own onus to be living for Christ. The only thing you can do is vet them extensively to see if they are willing to submit to the calling to which God has placed on them in marriage. If not, then you should not commit to a woman like that.

    There’s no shortage of popular blogs (see: SSM, etc) about how Christian women need to submit. But there is a shortage on Christian mens blogs who aren’t game-centric.

    If a Christian woman was willing to write a “leave him better than how you found him” article I’d be interested to read it.

  18. Ahh, what is happening among the young Christian males is that construct is twisted to supplicating before the female “I’m so lucky just to talk to her!!!”

    As if the world is a desert and she is the only bottle of water to be had, it causes a really bad frame and what happens next is very predictable.

    And as been the recurring theme in this discussion, the pulpit then undercuts the male who even attempts to offer spiritual insights to the female in or outside of a married state.

    It boils out to “if you were just a better man, this would not be a question, suck it up”. I’d love to hear from a Pastoral Counselor who can recount the vague “I’m not happy” as the main complaint against a husband.

  19. @DS said: ‘While we debate on the merits of “knowledge of game” vs “application of game” there’s pretty much no one writing about the concepts of Christian masculinity and how to build it.’

    Disagree. The vast majority of Christian blogs directed at men are teaching Christian masculinity (and almost always without any reference to Game).

    Of course, their definition of “Christian masculinity” probably differs greatly from yours (or mine). I’m sure pastors like Mark Driscoll and James Dobson as well as laymen like Bill Bennett all would say they are teaching Christian masculinity.

    And therein lies the rub. These men believe they are teaching true biblical masculinity, but they are so disconnected from the culture at large they don’t realize how much modern culture has influenced their view of masculinity. But they only way they would realize that is to understand modern culture.

  20. “Disconnected” was probably the wrong word in my last post.

    They are so immersed in modern culture (like a fish in water) that they don’t realize the influence it has on their world view.

  21. @ 8to12

    You’re right, but you know what I meant.

    I think you’re a bit off on the main problem though. They main problem is they don’t preach what the Scripture state in regard to women, and thus with only half of the equation they begin to pile onto men the responsibilities of women.

    If you’re uncomfortable stating the unadulterated truth that wives need to submit to husbands in all things then you’re giving into fear of man rather than fear of God.

  22. As for the Austrian Economics-based defenders (Keoni, Vox, libertarians), I’m skeptical of taking the theories of materialist Jews like Mises & Rothbard (speaking of which, Rand as well) and applying them to all of life.

    Actually, my argument for describing game as a Praxeology was simply to say that those who preach Evolutionary Psychology as the basis for Game are wrong. Game, like economics, is not an exact science. I made no such argument that materialism or economics should be applied to “all of life.” Furthermore, you’re applying an ad hominem attack (Materialist Jews) to dismiss the theory, rather than address the theory and what may or may not be wrong about it.

    That being said, I get the great distaste so many Christians have when they come across the MAndrosphere and the discussions of Game. Call it what you will – I see nothing wrong with Christian Masculinity – but I would say that those who denounce Game and promote Christian Masculinity are simply using a different set of words to describe the same thing, and for similar purpose but for much different motivations. I have zero problems and zero disagreements with all of Deep Strength’s excellent posts here…and yet I see how many of his concepts are based on the same axiomatic truths, just directed towards a God-focused purpose rather than a hedonistic indulgence of sin.

    Some of you may wonder why I come across as such a vehement defender of “Game.” Folks, it has nothing to do with the PUA, and I certainly do not advocate fornication, adultery nor promiscuity…and yet I see great utility in the study of the Praxeology of Game. Some of you act as if my study of it, and my relating of it on my blog and elsewhere in comments on other blogs, amounts to evangelizing for all males to become PUA.

    Not so. I see Game simply as a metaphorical tool, one that can be used to reverse engineer the mass media and Churchian emasculation programming we Men have been subjected to, all our lives in this Brave New World Order. I grew up in a church that paid lip service to Male Patriarchal leadership by husbands and Fathers when it was time to read, preach and discuss scripture…but in practice and behavior, nearly all men in my church were being lead from behind by their wives…and only now with the benefit of hindsight and insights do I see this for the problem it truly is.

    I cannot begin to tell you all just how many emails and comments I’ve gotten over the years from married men telling me how my blogging on this topic has helped them take control of their lives and become the true leaders of their families and re-ignited their wives attraction to them…all because I blogged about how my experiences with studying this thing the PUA’s all tout, and applying the principles to myself in relation to my life.

    Can we not all agree that marriage between a man and a woman to become one flesh and procreate, is Godly and ordained by our Father in Heaven as his design for our purpose on this earth? So if this thing called Game helped me and many others achieve this purpose, why the need to denounce it simply because sinners have embraced it?

    Hate the sin, love the sinner!

    Have I sinned in “using Game?” Have all those other men that contacted me to tell me how it helped them improve their own marriages…have they sinned too?

    Game, at it’s core, is for the auto-didact, the self-starter. The folks that are seeking a leader and a system to tell them how to achieve success will never understand the introspective insights that Game provides.

    At it’s essence, GAME is a tool for self-introspection and self-improvement. You want to call it something else, and use the same principles to preach male self-improvement towards Godly goals, I support that 100%.

    But to spend inordinate amounts of time denouncing “Game” as sinful and wrong is really just an exercise in holier than thou self righteousness. We are all fallen sinners, are we not?

  23. Padre:

    “ And as been the recurring theme in this discussion, the pulpit then undercuts the male who even attempts to offer spiritual insights to the female in or outside of a married state.

    “It boils out to “if you were just a better man, this would not be a question, suck it up”.”

    Hmmm. I don’t see Deep Strength or others undercutting men offering spiritual insights to women or telling men to “man up”. What is going on in the larger culture is pastors telling men to do this; to “suck it up” and to “man up”, but for the wrong reasons and wrong motivations. The Christians now challenging us to a different paradigm are saying “man up” not for a woman; but for God and for self.

    Driscoll, Dobson, Stanton, Churchians, et al. bleat “Man up” and “be a better man!” so as to conscript a man into service specifically for women at large; and for a woman in particular who deigns to have him after her 10 year spin on the carousel.

  24. “amounts to evangelizing for all males to become PUA.”

    Which is never, ever going to happen, even if everyone wanted all men to become proficient in seduction. This fantasy/fear that some have; that there will be roving bands of Roissys and Rooshes deflowering every woman in sight, is just “sky is falling” overreaction and nonsense.

  25. “Driscoll, Dobson, Stanton, Churchians, et al. bleat “Man up” and “be a better man!” so as to conscript a man into service specifically for women at large; and for a woman in particular who deigns to have him after her 10 year spin on the carousel.”

    Oh I agree, and would go further they justify near hypergamy when it comes to financial decision making, one of the death knells of modern marriages.

    As for DS and Aquinas Dad, they are not offering anything that is unChristian or anti male, quite the opposite, what I’m trying to point out is the emotional nature of youth and metaphorically pointing to Calvin’s 20 tome, dense work, does not relate per se

    And there was an excellent point raised about a fish in society only knows water, I would say Roman Empirical culture is not very different from current Western Culture the inversion occurs thusly: Rome was powered by a military that constantly conquered and brought slaves home w/low labor costs, the current West is powered by powerful militaries that enforce hegemony which leads to debt that enslaves the debtors.

    A sort of distinction w/o a real difference.

    I did find DS’s “spiritual instruction being rejected is a built in filter” insight rather thought provoking. However until the Christian Male understands the nature of the feminine imperative, there will be little implementable steps to be offered.

    ATM suspect DS’s approach would be met with a “I don’t judge and neither should you”

  26. @ Keoni

    That being said, I get the great distaste so many Christians have when they come across the MAndrosphere and the discussions of Game. Call it what you will – I see nothing wrong with Christian Masculinity – but I would say that those who denounce Game and promote Christian Masculinity are simply using a different set of words to describe the same thing, and for similar purpose but for much different motivations. I have zero problems and zero disagreements with all of Deep Strength’s excellent posts here…and yet I see how many of his concepts are based on the same axiomatic truths, just directed towards a God-focused purpose rather than a hedonistic indulgence of sin.

    I see where you are going with this, but I think you’re a bit off track.

    For every Christian man who has come into the manosphere that has e-mailed you about how “game” and your blog has helped them in regard to aspects of masculinity such as maintaining boundaries, your mission, etc., how many Christian men would you say that fell into a hedonistic lifestyle and were led away from God? I certainly know of many such manosphere bloggers that were former Christians or Catholics that currently are players.

    If one person is led astray isn’t that one too many?

    This is very similar to the argument Paul sets forth in 1 Corinthians 8 on food sacrificed to idols. He would rather not eat that food if eating it causes his brother to sin then exercise freedom in Christ.

    Game, at it’s core, is for the auto-didact, the self-starter. The folks that are seeking a leader and a system to tell them how to achieve success will never understand the introspective insights that Game provides.

    At it’s essence, GAME is a tool for self-introspection and self-improvement. You want to call it something else, and use the same principles to preach male self-improvement towards Godly goals, I support that 100%.

    That’s the thing though… game is about the self. It’s selfish. It’s not about God. God cares about the heart and wants to be first in the heart.

    As I have stated in a post or two, game certainly allows men to take women off of a pedastal (which is good because pedastaling woman is idolatry), but it takes the women off the pedastal and places yourself or places your focus on women rather than God. Exchanging an idol for another idol is not a good thing.

    There are those such as yourself who can recognize this and not allow it to happen, but not every Christian man recognizes this.

    The analogy I like best is the firm foundation versus the shaky foundation. First a man must be developing and growing in His relationship with God and be on a firm foundation for who He is in Christ, then he can use knowledge to build upon the structure.

    We should not be giving knowledge (of game, of knowledge of the lusts of the flesh) to build a house on a shaky foundation.

  27. @deti said: ‘This fantasy/fear that some have; that there will be roving bands of Roissys and Rooshes deflowering every woman in sight, is just “sky is falling” overreaction and nonsense.’

    Those roving bands already exist in the form of naturally alpha males. If the 20% rules is correct about natural alphas, then there are already plenty alphas out there to satisfy any female promiscuity urges.

    Creating more alpha-male/PUA types would only increase the cohort of men women were having sex with, but it’s unlikely it would increase the amount of promiscuous sex women are having.

    In other words, a woman that is prone to being deflowered by an alpha-male is going to do so regardless of whether she comes in contact with 1 or 100 alpha-males in her life.

  28. That’s the thing though… game is about the self. It’s selfish. It’s not about God. God cares about the heart and wants to be first in the heart.

    This argument could be used to denounce ANY action or behavior. Going to college to get a degree to get a career to support a family…working out daily to develop physical strength and excellent health…studying advanced mathematics to become an engineer…all these things are about the development of self. Is that selfish?

    “The analogy I like best is the firm foundation versus the shaky foundation. First a man must be developing and growing in His relationship with God and be on a firm foundation for who He is in Christ, then he can use knowledge to build upon the structure.”

    No disagreement here. I’m not one to say Game is a be all end all ethos or all encompassing proscription for life.

    I just don’t see the conflict between the Praxeology of Game and the Religion of Biblical Christianity…in the same way I believe God Fearing, Righteous Christian Men should definitely arm themselves with guns and training in the martial arts. Just because many evil sinners use guns for sinful purposes doesn’t mean Christian men should eschew that training and development for the capacity to commit violence.

  29. “If one person is led astray isn’t that one too many?

    This is very similar to the argument Paul sets forth in 1 Corinthians 8 on food sacrificed to idols. He would rather not eat that food if eating it causes his brother to sin then exercise freedom in Christ.”

    Who is ultimately responsible for their own conscience?

    this is why I said a “Puritans’ Puritan” that approach then means it is never “good enough” and there is no joy nor peace to be had, which in the same vein, Paul also mentioned “they should castrate themselves”

    Granted, that was in terms of circumcision, the spirit of taking things to far is clearly what he had in mind.

    Of course he also advised to not get married, Paul was a bit manic at times

  30. @ Keoni

    This argument could be used to denounce ANY action or behavior. Going to college to get a degree to get a career to support a family…working out daily to develop physical strength and excellent health…studying advanced mathematics to become an engineer…all these things are about the development of self. Is that selfish?

    It does matter because the heart does matter.

    The the understand that one must come to is that God does allow evil but can use it for good, but we should strive only towards the good of God. Let me explain further below.

    No disagreement here. I’m not one to say Game is a be all end all ethos or all encompassing proscription for life.

    I just don’t see the conflict between the Praxeology of Game and the Religion of Biblical Christianity…in the same way I believe God Fearing, Righteous Christian Men should definitely arm themselves with guns and training in the martial arts. Just because many evil sinners use guns for sinful purposes doesn’t mean Christian men should eschew that training and development for the capacity to commit violence.

    The reason why I don’t like the tool analogy is because it’s not 100% accurate.

    Take your analogy. Even though a gun is just a gun, would you want to own the gun of someone who used it to commit mass murder? Would you want to own the gun of one of the columbine shooters?

    There’s an innate revulsion that we have to the “gun” or “tool” that is used to commit murder, even though we know the tool is not responsible for the decision of the owner.

    Likewise, would you argue that sex is sex and the only difference between fornication and sex in marriage is context?

    I think that’s an indefensible position. The reason why sex as an emotional, spiritual, and physical act in marriage is holy is because first the heart is right with God and we are walking into what God said was very good for His creation.

    Men and women can even sense the difference. Greater marital satisfaction in husbands and wives who waited to have sex after marriage than those who had premarital sex. There’s tons of statistics and studies to support this, and the reasons for this are probably many.

    Sure, we can certainly learn from things that are not in and of the Bible. But the heart must be right with God in such actions. I would certainly not attempt to use dread game on a wife as God tells me that jealosy is of the flesh. Yet, I see Christians in the ‘sphere fully supporting the use of dread game.

  31. @ Padre99

    Who is ultimately responsible for their own conscience?

    this is why I said a “Puritans’ Puritan” that approach then means it is never “good enough” and there is no joy nor peace to be had, which in the same vein, Paul also mentioned “they should castrate themselves”

    Granted, that was in terms of circumcision, the spirit of taking things to far is clearly what he had in mind.

    Of course he also advised to not get married, Paul was a bit manic at times

    That’s the same line that women use to say that they should be able to wear anything they want and not care about modesty.

    Also see: “I do not know. Am I my brother’s keeper?”

    http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+4&version=NASB

    I may state the truth, but if I say it without humility, without kindness, without goodness of God then if it leads someone away from God I still have to answer for that to Him and the judgment throne.

    Do Christians really think that telling non-Christians that they’re going to hell that they are doing them a favor even though that is the truth? 99.9999% of the time it just drives non-Christians further away from the Truth.

  32. @ Padre99

    You know what I mean. No need to nitpick.

    Jealousy for that which is His is righteous — God for his people.

    See zelos (G2205) from Galatians 5 for the jealousy of the flesh.

  33. @DS said: “If one person is led astray isn’t that one too many?”

    If we can prevent one death, shouldn’t we ban all guns?

    If we can prevent one illness, shouldn’t we outlaw raw mild?

    If we can prevent one teenager from killing themselves, shouldn’t we stop condemning homosexuality?

    The “if one” fallacy fails to take into account other consequences. It takes complicated issues and attempts to turn them into simplistic either/or questions.

    We should be trying to prevent men from being led astray, but we shouldn’t do it by leading them down a possibly more troubled path.

    If we can prevent one man from being frivorced…
    If we can prevent one child from being separated from their father…

  34. After Cain murdered Able, then lied to the Most high about it. Who has never justified their own crimes? (solipsism at work, women operate in that state for the most part)

    And I would say, those who were led astray were never truly with God.

    “I may state the truth, but if I say it without humility, without kindness, without goodness of God then if it leads someone away from God I still have to answer for that to Him and the judgment throne.”

    This is why He is the cardio knower, one can lie to man, never to the Most High. This is one area where I suspect one is misunderstanding Game, esp from a Christian Male Perspective.

    It is not about creating “Coulds” it is about creating “Shoulds”, I’ve seen quite enough of awkward, unconfident Christians either abandon the Faith, or get blown up to know the way things worked, no longer work that way.

    The assumption that women WANT to get married, esp young women, is fallacy, they really do want to ride the carousel, until some good little Christian boy scoops them up after the ride is over (mid 30’s tends to be the range), only to be used for a second ride at their expense.

    Brutal, it is the truth, the answer to the feminine imperatives biological clock is to play a role, get $$, hop back on.

    I’m an ear to the ground servant, what I’m seeing, and why it is happening, is entirely predictable, yet falling on deaf ears.

    Dislike saying and seeing this, however, this is how it tends to work, and make no mistake, women are clever enough to discover what the Christian male wants, pander to it, then extract what they want as they leave.

    I speak this way b/c I’m outraged at both sides of the equation and based on what I’ve personally witnessed, say “Yes” to the Red Pill and “Sort of” to Game.

    THAT is wise as serpents (an allusion to ancient Deist aesthetics prophesied enemies) and gentle as doves in action. Better rendered would be children of light v children of darkness

  35. “This argument could be used to denounce ANY action or behavior. Going to college to get a degree to get a career to support a family…working out daily to develop physical strength and excellent health…studying advanced mathematics to become an engineer…all these things are about the development of self. Is that selfish?”

    What you’re missing is the core of Christianity and Christian behavior. You’re becoming too focused on the letter of God’s Law, and not on the Spirit of God’s Law.

    Going to college to get a degree to get a career to support a family is of God, if it is of God’s will.

    Working out daily to develop physical strength and excellent health is Godly, if it is of God’s will

    Studying advanced mathematics to become an engineer is Godly, if it is of God’s will.

    Going to college to get a degree to get a career to support a family is not of God, if it is God’s will for you to be a priest

    Working out daily to develop physical strength and excellent health is not Godly, if it distracts you from adoration of God by turning into an adoration of yourself.

    Studying advanced mathematics to become an engineer is not Godly, if it is of God’s will that you become a loving mother.

    These are just examples I can pull off the top of my head. Obviously there is a whole possibility of other options that could be why it’s against God’s will.

    That is why, as men of God, we’re told to follow God’s will. Thy kingdom come, THY will be done….

    Game is based off of will of the self. It is self improvement. It is mimicking the dark triad.

    If churchian men don’t understand God’s will for men to have a Godly Masculinity, and all that having such entails, how do you expect them to have the wisdom or will power to avoid falling into the temptations of Game? They have no road map, no clear demarcations of right and wrong, or understanding of God’s will for them as Men of God. If they had that, they wouldn’t be churchian in the first place!

    You’re telling them they should seek power, without any appeal that they should first have the wisdom, love, and understanding of God first.

  36. “You know what I mean. No need to nitpick.

    Jealousy for that which is His is righteous — God for his people.

    See zelos (G2205) from Galatians 5 for the jealousy of the flesh.”

    I’ve spent a bit of time in the Strong’s Concordance to recognize what one is driving at (BTW, newer versions are corrupted, far better to have a early 90’s Strong’s)

    My point is not to drill down to the root and entomology, rather it is to demonstrate the Lord “gets it”, a sort of “my house is a house of people and not built by man’s hands” spirit, and that is the difference b/t showing genuine love and “you are going to BURRRNNN!!”

    As a witness (bona fides so to say) of genuine Christian Male game:

    -You will be sought out to talk to
    -You will be thought of as mysterious
    -You will be tempted, at times greatly
    -You will find genuinely good people who just are burnt out from the Churchian experience
    -When you do take the mantle of Authority, just be ready for the very very frightened reactions from those around you

    Oddly, or perhaps not so oddly, why is it there is more love for one another outside of the walls of a church then inside the walls?

  37. DS

    One thing that has struck me about the current times is “Knowledge will increase, Wisdom will decrease” (Dan iirc)

    What is the difference from your pov?

  38. Many things,

    1. Media influence. The masses will believe what you tell them to believe.

    2. Expansion of knowledge into details mean that most people will only get “parts” of the knowledge in a subject, and therefore only half truths. When you base action on half truths…

    3. Entitlement. When you think you know it all your mistakes go from internal to external. You blame others for your situation rather than learning from them and correcting your own action.

    4. Feelings are “truth.” “Equality” is a feel good sentiment and people are easily seduced by feel good rather than Truth.

    There’s probably a lot more than that, but that’s just off of the top of my head.

  39. “Da G.B.F.M.” is right, all “game” is pedestalisation. Christian men need a mission that doesn’t put women as the main goal… That mission is ethno-nationalism.

    A.J.P.

  40. Hmm, I see “Knowledge v Wisdom” in a different manner

    There is no emotional IQ to knowledge, one knows how to code Java, or one does not. This website, in reaility the entire internet is based on knowledge, not wisdom

    Wisdom on the other side, may be sought, only on occasion, she does not just toss her arms out all day long, meaning unlike a hard science like Quantum Physics or Calculus, were “it’s right or wrong”

    A warm fire and a scotch in peace, is “Wisdom”, encoding a website is “Knowledge”.

  41. You know something, I don’t think this whole thing really even needs to be a disagreement. Free Northerner’s original lament was to ask those of you who denounce game for an alternative.

    Looks like we have a good start here with Deep Strength and Chad and others taking up the cause and building the alternative. Good.

    The MAndrosphere is nothing more than a clearinghouse for ideas, and everyone comes to it with their own ideas, attitudes and beliefs…and most of us engage in this arena because we have all come to various levels of awareness of how wrong, unnatural and dysfunctional modern secular society has messed with our lives and communities. The arena of “game” is but one facet of this awakening to these realizations.

    We now have something for everybody…with this Christian Masculinity the newest facet to emerge, with the greatest room for growth.

    Have at it Gentlemen, you have my support.

  42. @ Keoni

    My main point has always been this.

    If you throw men into the wilderness of this world and they somehow “find” the manosphere there are two paths they see:

    1. The game path — they see a well beaten path with girls at the end of it that are interested in getting to know them around a watering hole. There are a few paths out of that area, but you don’t know where they lead to (some of them ultimately to a cabin, while others just deeper into the wilderness where you can get lost and die).

    2. The churchian path — they see an also well beaten path littered with trash and large boulders that you have to dodge around. In fact, it’s also close to a precipice so if you trip and fall you might lose a lot down the sides of the cliff.

    3. Godly masculinity — What they don’t see is the overgrown path that used to be used a lot by fathers teaching their sons about while impressing upon them their mission which is to end up at the cabin (or heaven if prefer). The fact that it’s a great path and a woman will most likely join them on the way to this path cannot be understated.

    In some respects, debate about game has always been really useless. As FN said, there has been no alternative because the alternative has been lost in the overgrown path or people see nothing wrong with the game path because some people can find their way out of the game path to God (with no concern for those who haven’t).

    I think the biggest misconception is that game is a toolbox which it certainly isn’t. Just because so called “tools” look similar does not mean they are the same because the motivations of the heart imbue a spiritual component into our actions that is either pleasing to God or not.

    But hopefully that will change as more people are transformed through the power of God to walk into the masculinity that God has called them to and are willing to blog about it. I know this has been the case for at least Chad, Donal, SPDI, hopefully FN, and I and I hope others join us.

  43. @DS, that analogy of the overgrown path is an excellent one. The Christian masculine path was invisible to me at the time I was desperately looking for help. Sure I eventually returned to Catholicism, but I understand that many men don’t and I get why they don’t. I’ve seen the Church as excellent for my faith, but of little help for intersexual interactions as I’m still having to learn a lot about that outside of my faith. Shouldn’t be that way, but it is. Being a Christian man shouldn’t be incompatible with being attractive to Christian women, but in most places, it is. I can’t change those women, I can only work on myself so I appreciate the new sign posts being put out there for our consideration.

  44. Keoni, I am sorry if I smear you, but I am just stereotyping (aka “pattern matching”). If you get caught up unjustly, by all means correct and enlighten as necessary.

    Ultimately, we need to keep ourselves free from the love of money. There’s a reason that economics (even the Austrian flavor) is dismal.

  45. Deep Strength,

    I think the struggle for beta men who bought into the lies of churchianity is that there doesn’t appear to be any way to “win”.

    On the Christian section of the man’o’sphere, I see no prominent bloggers that were sincerely following their faith, chaste, and filtering for quality spouses. They’re open about their pasts, but yet they can’t help but rejoice in how hot their spouses currently are (and they’re hot because they’re alpha). So they’re converts or prodigals and they’re honoring the Lord now, but they didn’t practice what they preach. So does what they preach even work? Is it pragmatic?

    On the other end of the spectrum we have the Christian men who are fighting to honor the Lord, be chaste, filter for a quality wife etc. And at the end of the day, they’re still single. I don’t write that to insult them or be an ass, I’m just saying what I see.

    So at the end of the day, it seems like my options are:

    1.) Be some level of a CAD/PUA and eventually be in a position to marry as a result of what I learn

    2.) Be Godly and single.

    The other point is that Christian men who were sincere in their faith ahve been so burned by “having faith” and “trusting in the church” that they’re asking if anyone really knows what is true? Who is right? Who knows the truth? If for 10 years of my life multiple churches, para church ministries, etc were so wrong about so much, and I lost 10 years of my life as a result, then why is some blogger on the net true? Why can I trust what he writes? Why is his claim of truth valid amongst the hundreds of other claims?

    In the context of women, it seems masculinity is what matters, Godliness appears to be irrelevant.

    Now if we want to talk about honoring the Lord, then that’s fine. We can say that being a Christian means you die to yourself, you please God, what you want doesn’t matter, so deal with it, have faith, and trust Jesus. But that’s a pretty miserable way to live, to never see the deepest desires of your heart fulfilled. Hope for eternity, but not for today. Life sucks and then you die!

    Anyway those are just my thoughts on the matter. It’s what I’m processing as I try to figure all of this out.

  46. @ jzb

    That’s precisely what we are seeking to address right now.

    No offense to most of the married Christian men but they don’t understand what it is like now searching for a wife. Likewise, what Churchianity is peddling is definitely not the truth.

    So we are in effect attempting to figure out how to find a wife, be godly, and masculine currently.

    After I make it through a lot more of the foundational topics, I’ll hopefully be moving into more practicals though I do have some already on the site.

  47. @DS

    It’s hard to explain, think of it this way:

    Sincere, young, Christian men have internalized what they are told…then utterly flame out when it comes to talking to women, whatever their age may be.

    The mindset is fine, it lacks pinache’

    Riddle me this:

    A guy:

    Knows 2 languages
    Is rock solid
    Dresses well

    And yet flames out like Johnny Blaze?

    I know what it is, basically so much internalization, so much self containment, w/o any zest

    Now Proverbs are Wisdom speaking in a world dying to hear Wisdom, if the youth wants to be more accessable learn the Proverbs, each and every one of them

    That is to say, if one wants to attract female interest, if not, then by all means..read Thomas Aquinas bitterly and complain about how the world does not understand

    That’ll work

  48. DS..two things:

    -You have a passion for this
    -You NEED to speak your mind in you own thoughts

    That is quite weak

    As an example, walked with my drop dead gorgeous neighborette this night, we walked and talked for an hour and a half, she was cold, at the end of the night she hops on me (think hug and hips near well u know) and she was cold…so opened my trench coat and she got warm w/ the side benefit being..hands all over me

    Joe Avg Christian never ever experiences this, that is a sort of starting point.

    And do not ask me about fallen female Sunday School teachers…it’s bad, real real bad..not so much to make me BREAK the Faith..enough to make me question WTF Churchians are doing to make this happen

  49. As they should be DS, is the world not filled with deep, long, rambles on topics?

    what is missing in the world is..genuine..centered..opinions and thoughts

    The Patriarchs can HELP to form world views, however, we are not marked down goods, our views count as well

    This is one of the problems of appeals to Authority, it negates ones self

  50. “On the Christian section of the man’o’sphere, I see no prominent bloggers that were sincerely following their faith, chaste, and filtering for quality spouses. They’re open about their pasts, but yet they can’t help but rejoice in how hot their spouses currently are (and they’re hot because they’re alpha). So they’re converts or prodigals and they’re honoring the Lord now, but they didn’t practice what they preach. So does what they preach even work? Is it pragmatic?”

    There’s a few things here I’d like to address. Hopefully someone is still reading this or will notice it.

    First, why do you expect anyone speaking The Truth to be prominent or popular? Jesus specifically states that anyone following him will be persecuted; in modern day this usually means that they will absolutely never receive any great deal of attention. They will be hidden. You -must- be willing to search for Christ and his teachings, he explicitly says that all who search will find, but you’re specifically asking to not have to search. Thus you will never find. My heart mourns for you if you give up that easily.

    Second, stop lamenting about the rewards of this world. You will never find perfect justice in this life, and that includes when dealing with women. God does not owe you a wife, God does not owe you anything. If you find a wife, it will be a gift from God as stated by the Bible. Start honoring God by becoming a Patriarch, and you’ll find more women interested in you.

    Last – read Job and Chesterton’s introduction to it. Heck, even just read Chesterton’s introduction to it if you’re lazy or pressed for time. It will give you insight on how exactly, as Christians, we’re meant to approach the carrying of our crosses – with Joy and Thanksgiving to the Lord. Much as lifting weights will make you physically stronger, carrying crosses makes you spiritually stronger.

    http://www.chesterton.org/discover-chesterton/selected-works/the-theologian/introduction-to-job/

  51. Chad,

    The point I’m emphasizing is that there are no bloggers on the Christian section manosphere who were chaste, sincere, practicing Christians prior to their marriage. Those that are chaste and sincere believers are single men.

    I’m also emphasizing that there’s little difference between PUAs telling me that the world owes me nothing, and Christians telling me that God owes me nothing. You’re both saying the same thing – man up and make it happen.

  52. If you could only speak to women the same way you do on your blog, you would cease to have any trouble with them. I don’t think game is necessary for a man who has firm convictions and a clear purpose. Good luck in your quest to find a worthy wife.

  53. @ JZB
    Fair enough. I haven’t landed a wife, but I can tell you that I’ve been chaste by choice for 6 months prior to my conversion as I considered the change of beliefs, and then since June when I started attending mass. So that’s a year now. I can’t give you the ‘confirmation’ you desire, I can only tell you that I am far more filled with Joy than when I was hedonistic, and that I get a decent amount of female attention from attractive from women, yet haven’t found any to my taste (aka Godly) that also are interested in marriage.

    I’ll also point out that I said God owes you nothing in this life in terms of material goods or a wife. He offers a great many promises in his texts and teachings, as well as eternal salvation for those that follow him.

    If you eschew that and decide to risk eternal damnation instead, that’s your call. You mis-represent me and Christianity by saying you’re not promised anything, simply that you’re not promised the markings of success in this Life. A vast difference between the two.

  54. Jzb:

    “ The point I’m emphasizing is that there are no bloggers on the Christian section manosphere who were chaste, sincere, practicing Christians prior to their marriage. Those that are chaste and sincere believers are single men. “

    True, jzb. But let me see if I can help you focus this a bit.

    If you approach women and intersexual relationships in the manner DS and Chad suggest, which is Godly masculinity, you’ll be a better man for it even if you don’t meet a woman. Sure, most of the women Chad and DS might meet might not be interested in Godly femininity or marriage. OK. But think of the rewards that will be reaped if and when he receives a woman who IS interested in Godly femininity and marriage. Such a man receiving such a woman won’t have to use raw Game. He won’t have to use “tricks” or “techniques”, for lack of a better phrase.

    Contrast this with the typical situation the AFC male finds himself. He’s probably married a woman who had differing ideas about marriage than he did. The two of them aren’t of one mind when it comes to marriage and thus aren’t really the same flesh. She wants and expects certain things; as does he; and neither are coming at it from a Godly standpoint. He uses some Game. If it ‘s not authentic masculinity; if it’s not part of who he is, the best it will do is put a bandaid over the gaping wound that separates them. Unless his masculinity is authentic, he’ll only be able to manage the “marriage” (and they aren’t truly married, truly joined together; because they aren’t of one mind and flesh). He will never have true relationship and marriage with the woman, because they aren’t of one mind; they aren’t one flesh.

    Which would you rather have – a true marriage, a true joinder of flesh? Or a “marriage” in which there isn’t a true union because they are of two minds but are sort of stuck together with some “tricks”? If his masculinity is authentic, he’ll have the former. If his masculinity isn’t authentic, he’ll have the latter because that is how he’ll select his wife in the first instance. That’s why you need BOTH pyramids. You need BOTH knowledge of human nature AND command of Scripture and knowledge of God’s will. You need them both before you start working on filtering for a wife.

  55. Thank you for putting this together. I’ve been thinking a lot lately about how ‘game’ is antithetical to the Christian idea of masculinity. At least the classical idea. Today’s feminized, watered-down Christian man bears little to no resemblance to Christ’s example. Good luck and blessing to you in you journey of self-improvement. Seek God and He will provide.

  56. @DS

    “For every Christian man who has come into the manosphere that has e-mailed you about how “game” and your blog has helped them in regard to aspects of masculinity such as maintaining boundaries, your mission, etc., how many Christian men would you say that fell into a hedonistic lifestyle and were led away from God? I certainly know of many such manosphere bloggers that were former Christians or Catholics that currently are players.”

    So your position is that we should become like Pharisees and build laws on top of the law so that no one can get close to breaking them. The reality is that if they were led away from God, then they started using Game for the wrong reasons. Yet again, like a tool, it can be used for good or evil. The difference is in the heart of the individual man.

    @jzb

    “The point I’m emphasizing is that there are no bloggers on the Christian section manosphere who were chaste, sincere, practicing Christians prior to their marriage. Those that are chaste and sincere believers are single men.”

    I am a former blogger who got away from the Christian manosphere. I found a way to use Game in a Godly fashion and am now engaged to be married to a woman that I chose out of many who would have loved the position. I am chaste, sincere, and practicing my faith daily and have been throughout the entire period where I learned Game. It does happen. What you are reading in the Christian manosphere right now are men who have little real world experience when it comes to how game works and what it is, but instead are providing philosophy. When the rubber meets the road, they are wrong. Believe what you will, but know this, I am living, breathing proof that game not only works but is completely safe when used in accordance with scripture.

  57. @ JoJ

    Actually, I think I just figured out the differences between the anti-game vs pro-game crowd:

    The top-down (anti-game) view is this: We know that we don’t operate in a moral vacuum so therefore we can see that no “technique” or “tool” is void of spiritual ramifications. This is why game looks like a toolbox but is not — you cannot use a “tool” based in dark triad traits and expect not to be corrupted by it.

    The down-up (pro-game) view is this: We know that a Christian man who has a heart for God is able to sort between “techniques” or “tools” which are good and bad, and thus he can confidently say that eliminating neediness is going to make him a more effective man in successful communication, while on the other hand he may not use anything related to the dark triad because he knows that it will corrupt him. In this way, “game” can be seen as a tool because of the discernment of the individual.

    I’m pretty sure that we all agree that the knowledge by itself is not sinful (though some ways in which it is acquired can be). The main reason why I am “anti-game” per se is that it’s good to look at what “not to do” with game such as not be needy, not seek validation from women, not pedastalize them, etc. but be very careful on what to use from game on what we “should do.” It’s the “should do” techniques that may be subtly based in the dark triad that will corrupt. From the top-down view, that would be eschewment of game on a broader level as self seeking especially if you don’t know the spiritual ramifications of such, though if you can adequately distinguish between them (through the Holy Spirit) from a down-up it can be viewed like a “tool.”

    I can accept both views now that I’ve seen it more clearly.

    I’ve talked with you on the phone about being a more effective communicator while staying in the Scriptures for which I am grateful and thank God. I’ve seen good fruit in my communication abilities from that. And congrats on your engagement!

  58. @DS

    ” From the top-down view, that would be eschewment of game on a broader level as self seeking especially if you don’t know the spiritual ramifications of such, though if you can adequately distinguish between them (through the Holy Spirit) from a down-up it can be viewed like a “tool.””

    For man, everything starts with the heart. The question is not where does it start, as opposed to whom does the heart serve. There is no way to properly vet a “Christian” man to be sure that he won’t misuse these skills once you have given them to him. For me, there is no top-down view as we men cannot see things as God sees them. Ultimately, we don’t know the ramifications of our actions the way he does. There is no safe course in this. There will always be temptation as long as there is sin. Trying to avoid that is like a train trying to avoid it’s tracks.

    And thanks, she’s a very Godly woman.

  59. @ JoJ

    I can’t agree that there is no top-down.

    After all most Christian nice guys I would say have their heart in the right place — they want to serve God and have a godly wife — but are just misguided in many of their actions because they don’t see they have been lied to by their churches, media, society, etc.

    As much as the heart matters first to God, it does matter what the results of our actions are insomuch that they will bear good or bad fruit.

    My heart can be in the right place by informing a non-Christian that they’re going to hell (which is certainly true and I can have good intentions there), but that isn’t likely to draw a non-Christian closer to the Truth.

    The fact that God gave us free will so we can consider actions and consequences (and rise above our instincts) means that our heart needs to be in the right place AND we have to consider the end result of our actions (based on prior knowledge of end results) as much as possible.

  60. I would agree with you in that humans can’t see all of the ramifications of actions especially the way that God can. Though that shouldn’t persuade us from not considering them at all (no top down model) but on the other hand that should not persuade us to live in fear of taking action because of consequences (all top down model).

    There’s some degree of middle ground based God’s free will that we have.

  61. “Though that shouldn’t persuade us from not considering them at all (no top down model) but on the other hand that should not persuade us to live in fear of taking action because of consequences (all top down model).”

    Isaiah 55:8-9

    Please don’t take it to mean that we shouldn’t consider God’s ways. My point is that our understanding is very limited.

    John 14:15

    Instead, I think it is more reasonable to simply act and judge what we do based on scripture. By following those precepts and living like Christ, we show love.

    Romans 8:28

    Ultimately, it will be Him working and not us. We show love by following His commandments and He will see to the rest. It vastly simplifies my life to approach it like this.

  62. I see allot of men talking about using their heart yet not about using their head. Common sense (never mind logic) tells that men and women are not on the same page when it comes to what they want out of a relationship. Women play scrabble (words, feelings and emotions) and men play chess (logic, reason and sacrifice). Now what “game” has done is teach men how to play scrabble more effectively and now men are beating women at their own game. Don’t forget this is the same game that the modern world, society and even churches have demanded men play (whilst having to play full chess at the same time) and putting higher as well as double standards on men and yet ‘conveniently’ never required or even told women to play chess.

    What real God fearing men do is know the “game” rules of scrabble in order to get the woman to play chess with him. Where he is the one making the first move and she has to come and learn from him. Now seeing as women don’t like chess because they get beaten and it doesn’t “tingle” their senses, they try to get men to play scrabble from time to time (and still demand that men play chess at the same time). So he uses “game” scrabble to show her that she still can’t beat him – she get her temporary “scrabble tingle” fix – and realizes that it would be better for her to follow his lead and play chess with him.

    It is simple – men lead women follow. And in order to lead you not only need to know what and who you are dealing with(knowledge), more importantly you need to know how God wants you to use that knowledge (wisdom from God).

    Now some men have decided that they don’t want to teach let alone play chess with woman and now exclusively play “game” scrabble. So they have knowledge but no Godly wisdom. So this leaves these men wanting and disillusioned due to the fact that their natural game is chess and not scrabble. They to (like women) become dependent on the “tingle” fix and need more and more to satisfy it. And that is a race to the bottom of a bottomless pit.

    Is it a”tool”? Well a tool can be used to build or to dismantle. So it comes down to the individual’s God given freedom and intent to do with what they have been given. It is simple – that choice is to either follow the Father’s will or not.

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