My holiday break is ending, so next week we should get back to regular posting. For now, here’s a comment from jack (h/t: Society of Phineas) in response to a woman asking “Am I “Too Damaged” to Have a Godly Marriage One Day?” It resonated strongly with me.
As a Christian, I have noticed one thing. Christian girls make “mistakes” with the exact same type of men that non Christian women do. Bad boys. “Hot guys”. Athletes. Musicians.
In short, the small contingent of men who really have what it takes to melt her butter, as they say.
I waited during my teens and early twenties for the girls to learn that these guys were only toying with them. I would have accepted being second choice.
But, receiving attention from such men only convinced the girls that they were tantalizingly close to landing such a man, if they just got the process down better. These are the girls buying Cosmo to learn tricks to “win his love”.
This took me through my late 20s. I would have accepted being third choice.
But by now, the standards were only raised: “I’m done settling for being treated like crap by hot but jerky guys. From now on, I will insist on hot GOOD guys.” This begins the “born again virgin” phase, or the phase of temporary celibacy, where they focus on their careers and wait for Mr Tall/Dark/Dreamy to materialize. Along the way, they may satisfy the occasional physical need with a discreet hookup. I began to weary, but still tried to keep my spirits up, thinking that I could be fourth choice.
By their mid-30s, they start to waver on their standards, and begin talk of “settling”. Use of the term settling occurs because it is not acceptable to admit that their standards were unrealistically high, so they have to couch the discussion in a way that makes them appear to be magnanimously considering a man that was once far, far beneath their “standards”.
I began to balk at the idea of fifth choice, especially when I was being regarded as a sort of last resort, a better-than-nothing option.
To the original question:
No ones sin takes them too far to achieve redemption. No one is beyond God’s love or the chance for a Godly marriage. We all damage ourselves through the sins that we allow into our lives.
The question is not whether you are “too damaged” to have a Godly marriage. The question is whether you have damaged your ability to love the kind of man you can get. What the Lord has declared clean let no man call unclean. Your sin, like mine, is washed away.
The hardest part of marrying for me, NOW, is knowing that my wife has been absent from my life all these years. Where has she been? Married to another man, being his helpmate instead of mine? Dating frivolously, spending time and attention with various men that were interesting to her?
I have spent 20 years making a successful life for myself without the benefit of a wife, her company, companionship, counsel, or intimacy. Is it fair for her to move into my life having built none of it? What man has benefited from her companionship and affection while I have worked alone?
This then, is the real issue. It is not whether a woman is too damaged to have a Godly marriage. It is whether her neglect of Godly men has left them malnourished and wounded, and whether these men are suitable for marriage any longer.
Malnourishment, left untreated, cannot be reversed, no matter how much food you feed that person. And right or wrong, I would always resent the fact that other men were having the benefit of her affection and company when she was young.
Godly men are not appliances that can be tucked away in a closet until they are need because the bad-boy-charming-jerk plan is not working. We are living beings who need care, same as you.
Emphasis mine. I’ve written about not marrying an older women multiple times before. My other reasons were generally rational ones, but on a purely emotional level, how could one not resent a “wife” who was spending her time and love with other men or on other things when your young heart was rending itself from loneliness? At least a young woman has the excuse of being too young to have been there with you.
You, decent young man who have built a life for yourself, have too much value to waste on such a woman. If she wasn’t there when you needed her, she does not have any claim on you now that she needs you.
Also related to part of the comment, Vox recently pointed out women always seem to be trying to fix the sociopath, never the decent, awkward, lonely young man.
These thoughts echo mine. I am far and away more discriminating when considering an older woman (relatively speak, of course) as a possible wife. There better be a damned good reason why she took her time to get thinking about marriage.
This.
The sad part is your commentary assumes she’s been “living it up” while you’ve been languishing on the sidelines. I’ve read how the current conditions have made it extremely difficult for the kind of chaste “undamaged” women you’d like for a wife. Why? Because she would’ve been sidelined by man after man who want her to “give it up” because all the other women have, and when she says “no”, being “next”ed for a tramp who will put out.
This is not an emotional problem. This is a baby-making problem. Romance was originally supposed to be the handmaiden of baby-making; now the West is undergoing demographic collapse because Westerners think romance is more important than baby-making.
The solution to this is simple.
Western societies used to have the notion of an “old maid.”
Once they remember that idea, and apply it to some reasonable window of fertility, they will start making babies again.
There is a generation of women and men who will be miserable because they should have gotten married young and they didn’t. That is sad, but lots of sad things happen and sadness is not an excuse to give up.
Even after Westerners once again start making babies at a biologically appropriate time, they might very well be miserable in their marriages. Again, this is sad, but it’s not an excuse to give up.
Alpha up, date younger women. Which only reduces the amount of her time and affection she has given to another vs eliminating it
If the world tells you one thing, the opposite is probably closer to the truth.
The world tells us that getting married early is a mistake. “You’re only 20, girl, what’s wrong with you?” Women are told that they need to go to college (put them in debt), then find a good job (they have to), get their career going, and then think about marriage. It’s a successful lie, most people spout that nonsense. But what happens during that process? What happens to the men who are put on the shelf to wait? What are women taught at these schools? Without a Godly man in their lives, who is influencing these women?
I don’t know how old you are Free Northerner, I suspect you are in your twenties? I’m 31. I was engaged to a woman at age 29 (she was 30), but I broke it off when she revealed her gold-digging ways to me. Her ‘history’ made the decision much easier.
But anyway the good news is that at age 31 my hormonal drive to acquire female companionship is much less. The sex drive is still there but butterflies or emotional longing seldom emerges. This could be because of my experience but I attribute it mostly to age. Other men have reported similar things to me. And at age 40, apparently emotional longing is practically extinct and your sex drive is going away too. This is probably why a single never married man at age 40 has statistically almost zero chance of ever getting married. This is despite the fact that such men are likely to have sizable incomes and are especially attractive to desperate women in their thirties.
Anyway, my point is that before age 30 a man will feel biologically compelled to acquire female companionship. But sometime after that point the rational part of the brain kicks in and we no longer feel compelled to lower our standards for some used up ho, or risk divorce thereby losing our life’s work in the name of emotional wuvvy-duvvy poo-poo. This results in a demographic time bomb – women are amenable to marriage after age 30 but that’s right about when men cease being interested. Pretty much everyone single over 30 today is unlikely to marry and likely to be infertile.
As a practical matter, coversion to Islam and appropriate travel would could achieve your goals. Many men I know have chosen that road and have young wives and four children. A 30 year age difference is no problem Another route is to go to the Philippine. No divorce is legal there.
@ ANO
I’m fairly certain that FN wasn’t including those (very rare) women in his commentary. After all, they weren’t spending their time and love on other men/things, they were trying to marry. In a way, they are just as hurt as many of us here.
how could one not resent a “wife” who was spending her time and love with other men
And she resents you also for not being up to her standards.
A recipe for success.
@Donal – I took FN’s post at face value, if he meant otherwise, I’m sure he’ll correct me. :)
We are agreed on how the “good girls” have been hurt just as much as the “good guys” have been.
Now, if only there was a way to get the two groups together and filter out all the trash…
@ANO: She’s been nexted because she went for Harley McRockbanddrummer. My sympathy for her plight is so limited the worlds smallest violin could easily play it. Anybody who’s telling me these hypothetical good girls looking for marriage were sidelined by nice boys are… in dire need of a second helping of red pills.
Jim,
Being a man in his [very] early 40’s I can say you are mostly on point.
A couple things however:
I still have women in their 20’s chasing me.
Not top teir, certainly, but I’ve had a terrible run of bad luck so my circumstances are far below what they should be.
Regardless, I have them.
And any man, even at my age, that has donned the shades [‘They Live’ allusion] will still do well.
My competion [overall], quite frankly, sucks.
I’ll close with a thought I’ve had for many years now:
When one considers the presence of a woman in a man’s life as a punishment rather than a reward-
The world – and its modus operendi – make/s a great deal more sense.
“You, decent young man who have built a life for yourself, have too much value to waste on such a woman. If she wasn’t there when you needed her, she does not have any claim on you now that she needs you.”
This +1
I was the 20 something you barely gave a sideways glance at. I was tall, athletic, full of prospect. But I wasn’t yet a man in your eyes. I had no car, had no house, had no bank account. Just student debt and an awkward smile.
You rode the carousel well past your 29th birthday. Now the alphas of yesteryear who entertained you have either married, moved on to new prospects or no longer interest you.
All of a sudden, you see me with new eyes. The 20 something boy you mistook for a piece of furniture 10 years ago, looks curiously like a man. He’s got a car, he’s got a great job, he’s got a place of his own…he walks with confidence and purpose. He’s the new alpha….what you may not realize is…you’re his omega. His last resort.
Who’s the piece of furniture now?
Damn, it’s good to be a man.
Hang in there brother. I use to be the same way, sort of. I was the guy, the bad biy, many women hit it up with. Honestly, it is not all that. At one point, most bad boys were actually you. They wanted to work hard, and have a companion who would faithfully be with, and care about them.
It is very, very, easy to accept the notion that women drive the sexual market. Because they do. They just cannot be allowed to decry their whole scheme as your fault, when they made their bed. Make them lie in it.
Anything else, and you are wasting your time. Unfortunately, you are most likely passing many women by who could make you happy. They are either not sexy enough, or something else, whatever. The heavy set chubster with a great personality you dismissed would have taken you, but let’s be honest, we did not want her either. She was “not good enough.”
Now, you are saying something similar to a feminist, in “where have all the good women gone?”
Answer…there aren’t any. At least not with the body of Jessica biel, and the looks of sophia loren; all with the spiritual character of Billy Graham’s wife Ruth, and the business acumen of Marrissa Meyer.
Women have so elevated the game, we are starting to mimic their psychological complex in our own way.
Open your eyes, and you will be surprised who is around. She may not be a movie A-list actress in the look department, but you never know. Many of those women only look that good when air brushed. Many women could have the looks. It is finding one iwth the talent. I did, and I have not looked back.
Just make no mistake, she is ride or die, but she pisses me off all the time. And I her. You will make it man, go off on a adventure, and find yourself! The women who will suit your God given life will come, stop looking. And let Him be!
Reblogged this on The Andrade Archive and commented:
Truth
As a red pill aware girl, 21, looking for marriage, I can attest to being nexted. In 2013 once by a guy who knew about game, that is what got us talking in the first place, when I explained my position he rightfully dumped me, saying he wanted sex. The other 3 times by men, who I found out by the second date labeled themselves to be “liberals,” atheist or agnostics and didn’t appreciated my backward thinking. So when I wouldn’t hookup I was verbally insulted, labeled a prude and promptly nexted.
I think we need some kind of secret hand signal so like minds can find each other.
@Isode, or instead of hand signals, you can post stuff like that so a guy, 22, of like mind can come along and say, “Hey, my email is irenaeus011@gmail.com. Send me an email if you are interested in chatting further.”
@ ANO & Donal:
It’s probably hard for some traditional women, but I don’t think any woman (barring those naturally ugly or socially incompetent, who have my pity) who reaches the age of 30, or even their late 20s, is unmarried because she never had the chance to be.
I look at my life; over the last 7 years or so (once i got over my omegahood) I’ve asked out about a dozen women (probably hundreds if you include online dating) all in the 6-8 range (one might have been a 9), all but a couple cold approaches of similar shared values, and I was a very introverted sort. Throughout my life, I’ve been asked out exactly twice, once when I was 17 and had a major crush on someone else, and once by someone totally unsuitable as a wife in almost every way.
I assume people more outgoing then me ask out a lot more women than me. But even so that’s 6 times as many woman I’ve asked out as I’ve been asked out by.
If I had been asked out by a dozen girls sharing the basic characteristics (Christian, white, and compatible ages) throughout my life; I’m sure I would have married years ago.
Compare your own ratios of asked to asking.
Women get asked out a lot.
For example, in this thread, twice a month is “not enough”. That’s 24 times a year; that 240 times between 18 and 28.
http://boards.askmen.com/showthread.php?95221-Hot-Women-How-Often-Do-You-Get-Asked-Out
Other threads on the same question talk in terms of weeks or months.
http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?t=18345
http://www.socialanxietysupport.com/forum/f26/how-often-do-you-ladies-get-asked-out-49521/index2.html
My one close female friend had at least 4 guys, that I know of, all guys I know and all solid Christian men, ask her out with serious intent, (She did end up marrying one of them).
If you can get asked out over 100 times and not find one decent guy with similar values to marry, the problem is likely not the guys.
One thing men just do not seem to get, is that the large majority of women have a vast, almost uncountable amount of romantic opportunities handed to them.
Even good Christian girls have this abundance of choice. I recently was dating a very conservative gal from a very conservative church I met on an online dating site. I went to her church and there were about a half-dozen young bachelors there, most looked like decent men of faith. When we were talking later she said she was online dating because there were no men to meet. I asked her and her friend about the half-dozen guys I saw at the church. Her and her friend both went “ew” to themselves and explained how they weren’t acceptable for their social awkwardness. (This is not a slight on the girl, she was a very good girl, merely a story of the abundant option women have).
There may be the occasional unlucky woman, but as a rule, if a women is unmarried by her late-20s it is because she chose to be so. She had any number of decent young men ask her out and rejected them all, for some reason or another.
So yes, I am including women who “would’ve been sidelined by man after man who want her to “give it up”” in this.
From her many, many options, she chose to date the kinds of guys demanding sex rather than the guys who wouldn’t.
It’s her choice to make, but it’s also your choice, and the responsible choice, to not have anything to do with her.
@ zhai: Yup, the old maid should make a come back. Marriage minded men should refuse to consider older women.
@ Ton: That’s what I’ve been working on. Been self-improving and have been more dates in the last year or so than then the rest of my life combined, all with girls 5-10 years my junior. Currently in the process of setting up a date with a cute 21-year old Ukrainian immigrant.
@ Hamilton: Those’re exactly the questions the ortho-, mano-, and reactosphere should be forcing society to ask.
@ Jim: I’m in my late 20s and I feel this. The emotional impetus for relationship is declining; I don’t feel the strong emotions towards women I had even just a few years ago. Even my sex drive, though strong, isn’t as brutally urgent and pressing as it was. It’s almost as if a natural form of outcome independence is growing in me.
@ Robert: Conversion and expatriation are not things I’m considering. The idea of a foreign bride has been floating in my mind though.
@ WS: That is one of the nice things about being a man; age doesn’t hurt nearly as much. There’s a lot more ability to recover from an unsuccessful youth.
@ EB: Thanks for the advice. I’m trying to focus less on looking and more on accepting His will.
I’m not asking for perfection though, a pleasant 6 who shares my family values would be enough.
@ Isode: I hope you find a decent guy for yourself. I did leave some advice to young women looking for marriage a month or so ago. It might help you. Also, take Irenaeus up on his offer, or if you find a traditional man in the blogosphere you think might be nice, send him a message. There’s already been a few marriages come from the Christian manosphere.
http://freenortherner.wordpress.com/2013/11/29/building-a-life-together/
FB – how far did you read that “askmen” thread? I read a few pages and found a number of instances where “hot” girls got visual attention but weren’t asked out because guys found them intimidating.
So, even for the ‘hot’ girls, the lack of good ‘girl game’ can leave them sitting on the sidelines, just like the guys.
FN, donal, ANO:
Yeah, there are a lot of women who get passed over because they won’t put out. But those women who are getting passed over could take the bull by the horns and start looking for — and asking out – the decent men in their midst.
I also have to agree that a girl who’s still single at 30 is so through her own choice. She made the choice to signal interest in men who wanted only sex. Or, she made the choice to ignore good (but less attractive) men who asked her out.
Women keep saying they want good, honorable, Christian men. I’ll believe it when women start dating, marrying, having sex with, and bearing children by, those men. And in some cases, women are going to have to take the initiative and start asking those men out on dates.
In 10 years of dating life, from age 16 to age 26, I was asked out by five different women.
In those same ten years I probably asked out, or showed clear sexual/romantic/dating interest in, at least 50 different women.
Off-topic: you’ll want to update your (missing) card to this URL (or just steal and re-upload the image yorself).
Once I hit 30…the switch flipped. Although it started slowly around 25.
I still notice and talk with women but I no longer feel the need to date them or associate with them more than I have to.
“When one considers the presence of a woman in a man’s life as a punishment rather than a reward-”
That is what happens when 30 rolls around. In your teens and twenties it is the opposite…then everything changes.
In fact I think most red pill thinking by men can’t be fully taken in at least until he turns 27.
@ ANO: I read a page or two in in the three threads. It’s possible, but I think it’s more along these lines:
” I get many compliments, lots of flirting.. but they don’t ask me out enough. At least not the ones I want to go out with. ”
@ Karl: thanks.
@ Deti
You assume that the “decent men” aren’t as likely to push for sex as their non-decent counter-parts. The problem is that they have been hit with as much sexualization as their sisters. So they expect sex, and will probably push for it. When they don’t get it, they will assume something is wrong (even though their supposed moral code says otherwise). Also, chastity is rare in men, just as it is in women.
Of course, that doesn’t mean that all older women are victims of circumstance. They need to be vetted heavily, far more so than their younger sisters.
“I would always resent the fact that other men were having the benefit of her affection and company when she was young.”
Lol. Grow up. No wonder you are single. Nobody would want such a partner. Isn’t envy and jealousy supposed to be some deadly sin for a “Godly man” like yourself?
‘You, decent young man who have built a life for yourself, have too much value to waste on such a woman. If she wasn’t there when you needed her, she does not have any claim on you now that she needs you.’
This. She didn’t think you deserved her best years, so you shouldn’t think that she deserves yours.
If a man is a multi-billionaire, we can safely assume that whatever car he chooses to drive is his favorite in the world, because such a man can afford to buy any car he wants.
Similarly, when a woman is in her late teens and early twenties, at the peak of her SMV, and can ‘afford’ just about any man she wants, we can safely assume that the men she chooses to sleep with at this stage of her life are the ones she likes best.
The cold, hard fact is that the men the ‘born again virgins’ messed with in college weren’t really ‘mistakes’, they were their heart’s true desires, what they really wanted — what they would take again in a heartbeat, if they could do so while somehow reconciling it with their Christian beliefs.
So instead of being the kind of man these women settle for after they can no longer get what they really want, why not work to become the kind of man that women really want when they’re at their peak?
“Lol. Grow up. No wonder you are single. Nobody would want such a partner. Isn’t envy and jealousy supposed to be some deadly sin for a “Godly man” like yourself?”
Saith the banged-out whore, or the man who married one.
I am entitled to what I am entitled. And old fatties like you can shut your femmy little traps.
Lot of aggression, little virgin. Got layed recently? No?
Let me tell you why, from man to adolescent boy with serious psychological issues: being a sexist loser without a job, without intelligence, without decency and without a stable instead of a fragile ego you will never get laid.
I suppose that’s why you posted under “Anonymous”, brave commenter….
Another Christian fascist who has issues with women, non-heterosexuals, non-white people and so on appears and compensates his obvious human failures via talk about “courage”.
Been taking the ‘leap to conclusions’ exercise program Anonyboy?
Nope, just pointing out what you are. The scum of the earth.
“This took me through my late 20s. I would have accepted being third choice.”
By the way, always funny to see how people who fail at everything, including dating, going into identity crisis and clinging on to Christian fascism and some hyper-masculinity. Always funny to see obvious gammas who never got laid dreaming about being dominant alpha males.