We come to the last part of our guide, learning basic interaction with women. I left this for last on purpose; being attractive to women is primarily about demonstrating value to them and the prior advice will turn you into a (more) valuable man. (Game, or at least outer game, succeeds by mimicking the traits that demonstrate value; better to be than to mimic). If you’ve been implementing the previous parts of the guide, your value will already have increased, and you may have already noticed more success (or at least less failure) with women.
Before I begin, I’m going to be honest with you, as I’ve been rather uncomfortable about writing this part. I am mostly a failure in this area; I’m not sure if I’m even qualified to write this, but I have to, because this part is essential to any self-improvement guide for awkward males.
So, you should know that I’m not a player, a master of seduction, or any such thing. I’m not even all that successful with women. In fact, my romantic efforts have proven mostly fruitless in finding myself a wife and I haven’t been in a relationship in about four years. Everything I write here is stuff I’m still working on implementing (theory is a lot easier than practice).
What I do have is experience from being a total loser who wasn’t even in the dating game to having some success. I went from, literally, not being to speak with most women to, a couple of years later, having a couple short relationships. Now, I get occasional dates (one every few months) with moderately attractive women (6-8s). A vast improvement over the nothing I had prior.
So, the advice given here is not about game, it is not about becoming an alpha male, and it’s not about becoming king of the club. This advice will not help you find a smoking-hot 9 for a girlfriend or keep a rotating harem of 8s. I do not have the knowledge or experience to help you with that. If you’re looking for something like that try Roosh or Greene.
What this advice will help you accomplish is to go from being the loser who hasn’t had a date in three years (or ever for that matter) or is forced to date fat or unattractive girls to being a normal, socially well-adjusted man who can get the occasional date with a cute girl and, maybe, a moderately attractive girlfriend. If you’re the kind of person I’m making this guide for, that will be a large improvement over whatever you had (or more likely didn’t have) previously. Even if you’re not as total a loser as I was, some of the advice still might be useful to you.
This advice will not get into game in the sense of gimmicks, tricks, or “mind-games. It is simply about building yourself the social skills to be the kind of man a women of decent value might like to be with.
It will take a lot of work, and it will be a slow, grinding process. Don’t give up, keep trying. Simply remember how psyched you have been and will be in the future when you find yourself doing something you never thought you’d be able to do.
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Before we being, we’ll talk on the friendzone, a trap many men near the bottom of the socio-sexual hierarchy fall into.
The friendzone is a self-inflicted misery; stay out of it. If you value a woman as a friend, and only as a friend, be her friend and expect and desire nothing else. If something happens, it happens, but do not work towards it, do not look for it, do not desire it, and do not expect it.
It is highly unlikely you will get a relationship out of a friendzone friendship and it is very costly in terms of time and emotional effort. It is simply not something any reasonable person would pursue.
So don’t.
If you are friends with a women because you want a romantic relationship with her, then be forthright. Next time you see her, tell her straight, “I desire a romantic relationship with you. I can not remain friends with you because of my romantic emotions towards you.”
Maybe you’ll get a romantic relationship, maybe you won’t, but it is far better for you (and her) if you are rejected and end the “friendship”
If you don’t get the relationship, simply cut off the “friendship”. Stop spending time, resources, or emotional energy on her. You have better things to do with all three than waste it on a forlorn and pointless hope. Do not try to change her mind (you won’t); simply accept the rejection and move on.
If she asks why you cut her off, tell her the truth. You want a romantic relationship with her, not a friendship.
You can be friends with a woman, but only if the friendship is the end in itself. If the friendship is a means to a romantic relationship, it’s not a friendship; end it.
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The next little trouble many men who are are socially maladapted fall into is that of “nice guys finish last” while jerks get the girls.
The problem with this type of thinking is twofold: “nice” and “good” are not equivalent and the underlying factor is not jerkiness/niceness but rather a combination of manliness, charisma,and desperation.
Whatever their other flaws, the jerks who get women exude masculinity, which attracts women and often charisma (of a sort); they also rarely exude desperation. “Nice guys” are generally deficient in both, as rather than assert their own purposes, they defer to other’s, particularly women’s, purposes. This is decidedly unmasculine. Nice guys often also lack charisma, it’s boring to have someone who is always nice and agreeable with you and never challenges you. Being nice often gives of a vibe of desperation as well. As with the friendzone predicament, if you’re willing to do many nice things for a woman, she will see you as trying to “buy” her affections because you are desperate for his attention.
You want to avoid that, but that does not mean you have to become a “jerk”. Simply, try to be a man with your own purposes and make those purposes good ones.
Be a good man dedicated to good causes; don’t be a nice guy willing to defer to everyone else.
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With that friendzone and nice guys nonsense out of the way, we’ll get to the actual meat of the issue.
The first thing you need to do is decide, “what kind of woman do I want?” and “for what purposes?” What kind of woman or women do you want to invite into your ideal life?
“I’ll take whatever I can get” is the wrong answer. It shows both that you are low value and that you are desperate for female attention, both of which are inner failings on your part which will repel women.
Women want a man of high value; what type of high value each woman will care for will depend on her particularity, but all women want a man of high value. The type of women you want to date will likely be of high enough value to be able to demand that.
Also, every women wants to feel like she was chosen because she’s “special.” If she thinks you stuck with her because she’s the only one you could get, she’ll reject you (unless she’s such low value herself that she thinks you’re the best she can get).
So, now be honest with yourself, what kind of woman do you want in your life? What kind of relationship(s) would you like to have?
Think on it a bit.
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Now that you have an idea of what you want, picture the type of man who has what you want. Look around at your friends, your church, your neighbourhood, your social group, etc. What type of men have the kind of woman you want?
Be that type of man.
Success with women starts well before you even say hi to any women.
It starts by being the type of man the type of woman you desire would desire.
This is nowhere near as easy as the little phrase makes it sound, but it’s the goal. You may never reach it, but work towards it.
I’ll repeat it, because I can not stress this enough:
To be successful with women, you should first be successful with the other areas of your life. Success is attractive to women.
There is no secret to attracting women, there is no shortcut, there is no magic technique; to attract a women simply requires
So keep on improving in all the other areas I’ve already written about.
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One last piece of theory before we get to practice.
Know your value on the dating market and act accordingly. If you are a short, ugly man, you will likely never get a “9” (barring becoming a billionaire). On the other hand, with enough self-improvement, social skills, and value-building you might get a nice “7”.
If you spend all your time pursuing those 9s who will always reject you, but ignore that sweet little 7 with a crush on you, you will die alone.
Shoot for something attainable, but don’t settle. You want to work on finding a women on the upper edge of what you are able to obtain.
Look for a winning hand, not a perfect hand. If you hold out for a royal flush, you’ll almost surely lose, but that three of a kind will let you take the pot.
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Theory is over, now for more practical advice.
The first thing you need to do is to talk with women. You’ll never get any romantic success if you don’t start talking with women.
Start with that girl you’ve been mooning over for the past 6 months, but have been unable to talk to (you know full well who I’m talking about). Next time you see her, go up to her, say “Hi, how’s your week been?” Then simply follow along, nod your head where appropriate, and ask questions or interject with your own stories (if you can). Let her carry most of the burden of conversation.
Your first time will probably be pathetic and you’ll probably be scared the whole time.
Good; face the fear.
Next time you see her, do the exact same thing, but a little better. The next time, do the same thing. From now on every time you see that girl, go up to her, ask her how her week (or day, or month, or whatever) has been, and try your best to talk along. (Remember your Dale Carnegie).
After a few weeks have gone by and you’ve talked with her a few times, ask her out. It’s simple: “Would you like to go for coffee (or in summer, ice cream) with me this Friday at 7?”
She’ll probably say no because you didn’t interest her enough with your pathetic attempts at conversation. Accept that she’s going to reject you before you ask and don’t worry about it.
She’s rejected you: that’s great. I know it hurts, but what is far more important is that you tried, you asked her out.
Accept her answer, accept that she doesn’t like you, hurt for a few days or a week or two. Then get over it.
One woman rejected you and there are millions of cute girls out there. Go find another one.
If there is a women you moon over, who you already talk with regularly, just ask her out. A simple, “Wanna go for coffee with me Tuesday night at 6?” will do. See my advice in the friend zone section above.
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So now we’re at the point where you don’t really have any girl you particularly like, because “she” rejected you.
Good. Time to meet some women.
If you’ve been following along in the guide so far, you’ve probably been meeting lots of new people at your new social activities; I’m sure at least a few of them are pretty girls. Talk to them.
Do exactly what you did with the first girl. “Hi? How has your week been?” Nod where appropriate, ask questions about her (remember your Dale Carnegie), and talk when you can.
Your conversations with women will be awkward and painful at first. Don’t expect success right away. Simply talk as best you can. Every conversation you have will make you slightly better at it. Over time, without even really realizing it, you’ll become proficient. Just keep at it.
Talk with as many girls as you can. The more practice the better.
If you develop a particular fondness for a girl after a few conversations, simply ask her out. Same as above: “Let’s go for coffee for Sunday afternoon.”
You’ll probably get rejected a number of times before you get success. That’s fine, simply accept it and move on.
Don’t get too attached to any particular girl. If you find yourself getting attached to a girl, ask her out. From personal experience I know it is far less painful to be rejected immediately then to drag it out.
Keep talking to the girls in your social circles and keep asking out the ones you like; keep getting rejected.
As you do this, remember what you learned about body language and try (as best you can) to observe the body language of the girls you talk to. It can be a great help to pick up on her tells of whether she’s attracted to you or not.
Then, at some point one will accept your offer of a date.
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So, now you have a date. Here’s how to go about a first date.
Depending on where you and her live and your transportation systems, you can either pick her up or meet her. Either works, but if she doesn’t have a car and you do either pick her up or meet near her. She will not appreciate having to bus or walk long distances to meet you.
Arrive on time, but do not arrive more than a minute or two early (wait in the car or around the corner if you have to). Arriving early makes you seem desperate and is rather awkward for her. If you’re picking her up, get out of your car and get her; don’t just sit outside and honk.
A good general idea for first dates is gelati/ice cream in the summer or hot chocolate/coffee in the winter for a few reasons:
- They’re cheap, this avoids the “who pays?” awkwardness. $4 coffee won’t cause you much fiscal pain and she won’t feel bad about it. Simply pay for both of you; don’t ask her, don’t consult her. Simply tell the clerk you’re paying for both of you and ignore her “objections”. Pay in cash if possible; little will be more embarrassing than your debit not working because the bank is undergoing maintenance.
- The atmosphere around these is relaxed, unlike dinner dates which are more formal, and ideal for talking, unlike movies.
- Girls love ice cream; I’ve never met a girl who didn’t like ice cream (or a vegan alternative). Go for gelato if you can though. It’s enough like ice cream that everybody loves it and it won’t be off-putting, but just foreign enough that a lot of girls haven’t tried it, giving you a tiny amount of “worldly man” edge.
- Everybody loves hot chocolate on a cold day; it just feels right. Most places that serve coffee serve hot chocolate and vice versa. Order the hot chocolate, and let her choose whatever drink she wants.
When choosing an ice cream/coffee place choose one that is either near a larger park or is in a “walkable”, attractive neighbourhood, preferably a place you’ve been around before.
Once you have your beverages, don’t sit down, instead, go for a walk through the park/ neighbourhood. This has a few advantages:
- You’re doing something. Awkward pauses in conversation are far less awkward when you can both simply walk and admire the scenery.
- Walking lends itself far easier and more naturally to playfulness and energy than sitting at a table or on a couch.
- The scenery lends itself to creating conversation topics. Point out the cool looking dog, laugh at the garish colours of that odd house, remark upon that beautiful tree; whatever. There’s a lot more to talk about when walking around then when sitting down.
- If you know the area, if lends itself well to telling stories showing you have a full life (which is attractive to women). You can talk about the great pizza you had with your friends at Luigi’s, about the soccer game you won at the field over there, about that amusing story with your friends at that pub, or whatever other experiences you’ve had.
Note: If it’s winter or a blustery day, make sure to mention to her that you plan on going for a walk either when you ask her out or when you pick her up so she can dress appropriately. The walk will not happen if she’s not dressed for it.
Now that you’re out walking, what to talk about:
- Do not talk about politics, economics, religion, or other controversial issues unless she brings it up first or you know (for certain) that she’s really interested in them. If you both share the same core religious beliefs, you can talk about that, but avoid deep theology, unless, of course, she brings it up.
- Do not talk about your hobbies that women find boring (ex. video games, science fiction, Warhammer), unless you know she shares those interests. You can mention them if she asks what you like to do, but don’t spend any time on them. Nobody cares about your lvl 17 Orc Paladin.
- Avoid talking about your job, unless it’s very interesting. If she asks mention it, but most of use have relatively uninteresting jobs; don’t bore her by dwelling on them.
- Do ask questions. Ask about her about herself, her family, her hopes, her dreams, her hobbies, etc. (remember your Dale Carnegie), but avoid it being an interrogation. After you ask about her family, tell her a bit about yours or remark about . If you find yourself asking two questions in a row you’re probably doing it wrong.
- Talk about yourself. Let her get to know you. Talk about your (interesting) hobbies, your sports, your family, your recent trip, what you read recently, your friends, etc. But make sure to include her in the conversation; if you’ve been talking for more than few minutes without her saying anything (unless it’s a long, but good story) you’re doing it wrong.
- Talk about stuff you see or stuff going on around you.
All these conversation “rules” are solely to help you get conversation started (or restarted after an awkward pause). Once it’s started, let the conversation flow naturally. If you’ve got a good conversation going don’t ruin it by trying to hard or trying to stick to a set of rules. Simply go with the flow.
End the date at the right time. If things are going well and conversation is flowing, keep going, let the date continue, don’t cut it off when things are going well. On the other hand, if there’s a natural end point and you’re running out of things to say, end the date. (Ex: “There’s my car” or after a longer pause “I have things to do, we should head back”)
Don’t try to awkwardly prolong the date; end it a bit before it becomes awkward, and try to end it naturally.
Finally we get to parting. If you’re dropping her off, get out of the car and walk her to her door. If you met up, walk her to her car or bike. If you both walked, don’t just awkwardly walk away; make a definite part.
So how do you part?
That depends on a large number of factors such as how well the date went, your comfort level, her apparent comfort level, how much you like her, her apparent like for you, and your (and her) views regarding physical intimacy.
Whatever it is do not draw it out. Once you are at the parting point, make it short, a few sentences and a parting hug/kiss. Do not keep blathering away like an idiot; it makes things awkward.
If you don’t want to see her again, a hug or handshake, and a thanks for the date will suffice. Do not tell you’ll call her if you won’t. Thank her for the date and tell her you enjoyed meeting her.
If you do want another date, then tell her you enjoyed the date. Then either tell her when and how you’ll contact her again (something like, “I’ll call you in the next couple days) or if you know your schedule, lock down the next date (“I’d like to see you again, how about next Friday night?”).
Follow this with some physical contact, depending on how the date went and your comfort level. A few types of contact are always bad, such as a parting handshake or a side hug (the way I too often end a date). Here’s some good types of physical contact to end a date with:
- A full kiss. This is high risk. If you go for this and get it, you can be sure the date went well, but not all girls are comfortable with it and there’s a good chance it could flame out. As well, some, such as myself, may think it is too high a physical ecalation for such an early time. Go for this if you’re both really digging each other and you’re comofrtable with it. If she turns her cheek, that’s fine; if she pushes away you’ve blown it.
- A full hug. This is the safe move; it’s neutral and won’t win you any points but its positive, will rarely be rejected, and won’t lose you points (except among the most licentious of women). Make sure you lead and make it a confident chest to chest press with both your arms around her. Don’t lean over, don’t fumble awkwardly trying to avoid her breasts, don’t do a side hug, don’t make it awkward, and don’t be tenative about it. Commit to it fully and just go for it. Hold it for two or three seconds, but no longer.
- A light kiss on the forehead or top of the head. This has some intimacy to it and can be positive, but it has a sort of paternalism to it, which may backfire on you.
- Take her hand and give a light kiss the back of her hand, like an old school gentleman. This is usually positive, as it harkens back to chivalry and most women get a little giddy from that, but the traditionalness of it can occasionally backfire, especially with more feminist women.
- A peck on the cheek. Fairly safe for a date that has gone well. It shows a bit of intimacy, but is not as forward as the full kiss. It can possibly end awkwardly depending on how conservative she is or if she’s not as in to you.
Then tell her “See you later” and part. Don’t wait around after the goodbye contact; it makes things awkward.
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Now you have a second date (or third or fourth, your first few dates should all be similarly casual and give you the chance to get to know each other).
Choose something else relaxed, fun, and inexpensive, preferably something you know she likes. In a pinch, ice cream can work again, but may look a little stale.
- If you share a hobby, doing that together would be a great idea.
- Minigolf is good. It’s fun and relaxed. So is bowling.
- A hike in the woods, a stroll in a large park, or a walk at the zoo or aquarium can be a good adventure. It’s relaxing, fun, and there’s plenty of interesting stuff to see, talk about.
- Ice skating is great for the winter; it allows a great interplay between playfulness and getting to know each other.
- Museums, art galleries, etc. can be a good trip. Make sure to choose something she might be interested in.
- If you have a local touristy area, checking that out can be a good idea. You can walk around, admire the sites, check out the stalls, and have some casual snacks.
All of these can also work well as first date ideas.
After the first few dates, you can try dinner and a movie or, even better, cook her a meal and watch movies at your place.
After that, you’re on your own. You should know enough about her by this point to be able to figure out how to spend time together. Let things work from there.
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Lastly, cold approaches.
This is not something you’ll be able to do right away and will always be troublesome. You’ll probably need to build up to it. I still have difficulties with it. But here’s some exercises to help you build up to it.
Start by simply looking girls in the eye and smiling (make it a confident smile), as you pass them in the streets. In fact, try to make it a habit. Do this for every girl you see for two weeks.
The next two weeks, do the same, but say hi as well. Then keep walking (unless she makes a point to start a conversation with you; in which case talk to her).
The following two weeks, do the same, but if she smiles or says hi back, ask her how her day is going.
The following two weeks, if you see a girl you think is really pretty talk to her. If the clerk at Target is cute, as her about her day. Ask the gal on the bus what she’s reading or where she’s going. Ask the girl in line with you at the coffee shop how her day has been.
If any at any time, these turn into real conversations, and it seems like she might be interested, ask for her number.
If you get it, phone her two days later and set up a date. Then go to first date protocol.
Start small, and work your way up.
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Random Tips
- Remember your Dale Carnegie: smile. When interacting with women, be happy, be energetic, be positive. Nobody is attracted to the morose loser. (The brooding loner can be attractive if pulled off right; but if you need my help, you aren’t going to pull it off right).
- Remember your body language. If you can’t be confident, at least look it. Also, look to women’s body language. I can not stress enough the importance of body language.
- Take advantages of opportunities. If a girl says she really wants to go to a new restaurant, or see a new museum exhibit, or visit some place, or try some activity, she’s handing you an opening, use it. It’s a simple, “That does sound like fun, how about we go see that local play next week?” If she hands it to you, take it.
- No movies or dinner for your first few dates. Save movies until after you’ve known each other a while, because they don’t let you to talk during them. Save dinner until you’re actually dating, as it costs a lot, is too stereotypical (and thus “boring’), and looks try-hard.
- Don’t be desperate. Avoid phoning her more than once a day, and don’t phone her more than once between each date for your first half-dozen dates. Don’t text her twice in a row. After a date, wait a day or two before contacting her again. You can relax on these rules once you’re in a steady relationship.
- On the other hand, don’t go too far the other way. If you wait to long, she’ll simply not respond.
- Try to be natural. Don’t try too hard, don’t look like you’re trying to hard. Don’t try to put on a false persona. Act natural and confident.
- Practice. Social skills are like any other skill; you need to practice.
- Keep eye contact.
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Your goal:
Your goal for the week is to look every girl you pass in the streets in the eyes and smile at her.
Also, if you see “her” this week who you’ve been unable to talk to, ask her how her day is going.
If “she” is a friend or acquaintance you have talked to, ask her out.
The best way to learn is to teach. Keep up the good work.
Ill be honest- if a guy asked me out to coffee on a Friday night I would not be impressed. I look at a date as how much a guy is willing to invest in me, time and otherwise. If he is not long to take me to do a really fun and engaging activity (I had one guy take me bungee jumping), or else on a dinner date (I’m a big foodie and regularly try out new restaurants with my girlfriends) then it’s not really worth the time for me to. Get ready. Going on a date means potentially awkward conversation, which can be incredibly emotionally draining. It also involves (for me at least), about an hour of preparation, from doing hair and makeup to picking and outfit (and occasionally the cost investment of buying a whole new outfit). So of the guy is just wanting to spend ten minutes talking over coffee, then it’s definitely not worth it to me to clear my schedule and then spend at least an hour in advance getting dressed up. Additionally, if I sense a guy is trying to pinch pennies on a date that’s a huge turnoff. It seems to me then that he is not prepared financially for marriage (preparation for is the only point of dating) or emotionally mature enough to be willing to invest. I’m certainly not a gold digger- I have a high paying career and come from a great family. But I want a man who can be on that same level. But I speak only for myself, I’m sure there are girls out there that would really enjoy this.
@Girlsmarts – First, given what you’ve written, I really don’t think you’re in danger of being asked out by the kind of guys FN’s writing for. These are men who have difficulty even starting a conversation with a woman, much less get them to agree to meet somewhere socially. From what you write, I get the impression you’re used to going out with guys who’ve got a great deal of social experience and the resources to take you bungee jumping, buy expensive dinners, etc. and not think twice about it.
Second, in ‘the old days’ when the search process was taken seriously and the parties to the outing were both good matrimonial material, a bungee-jumping fine dining outing would be well worth the investment for both parties.
Unfortunately, this isn’t “the old days”, today there are too many women who have no problem abusing the search process to get freebies – free ego strokes, free food, free entertainment, etc. while giving little in return other than the “pleasure” of her company as she gave him the impression she was taking the search process – and his investment – seriously. There’s also the matter of screening if the potential partner is even marriage material in the first place – a high “N” count, entitlement issues, etc. all which would eliminate a woman from further consideration.
Given the social conditions as they are today, what man in his right mind would spend the kind of time it takes to get a woman to agree to an outing, then spend $100 – $200 dollars and the prep time needed to organize a “high-investment” outing – only to find out she was misleading him about how serious she was taking the search, or that there’s no way in God’s Green Earth he’d ever want to see her again?
In fact, what _quality_ woman who’se serious about the search process wants to be on the flip side of that equation, make serious prep-time investment in a date, only to find out the guy’s absolutely hopeless as a match?
A coffee out is a quick, low-investment, low-risk way for a couple to see if there’s anything there that’s worth a more serious investment of time and resources. If something is there, then both sides can invest more in another outing and escalate from there. If not, then all that’s lost is a bit of time and the price of a cup of coffee.
If you find that ‘unimpressive’ because it doesn’t match your definition of a ‘date’, then that’s certainly your choice, and I wish you well in your search.
However… to address some points you raise:
I look at a date as how much a guy is willing to invest in me, time and otherwise.
And what do you bring to the table? Beyond spending time getting ready and dressing up, what kind of investment are you willing to make in a guy who asks you out?
I’m certainly not a gold digger
Taking this at face value – beyond “looks and income” – what makes you a great catch? How would being with you improve a guys life? When the going gets rough, are you willing to stick things out, or are you on the next flight out of town when the tingle flow slows down?
I have a high paying career and come from a great family. But I want a man who can be on that same level.
From what you’ve posted, it sounds like a man would be getting a woman that would require a high amount of ongoing investment in time and resources in order to keep happy. This also implies that if you felt “unhaaapy”, you’d leave in favor of more tingly pastures, and he’d be looking at a divorce-rape.
That puts you beyond the reach, desire, or effort of most sane men out there, and definitely makes you a strong future candidate of the Crazy Cat Lady society.
Of course, I could be wrong. In fact, I hope so….
You said “In fact, what _quality_ woman who’se serious about the search process wants to be on the flip side of that equation, make serious prep-time investment in a date, only to find out the guy’s absolutely hopeless as a match?”
This is exactly my point. Absolutely no serious conversation can be had over a ten minute coffee. At best it could be a chemistry test, but I know for me personally (and I think many girls are like this) I know if there’s chemistry right away and wouldn’t go on a date with someone I wasn’t at least somewhat attracted to. And since thh perspective your exploring here really does not seem to consider her chemistry or physical attraction, only her attraction to a man’s energy and leadership abilities, then it seems irrelevant to the discussion anyway.
As I said, lots of girls feel differently. Many would probably be fine with a coffee date. I can think of maybe one or two girls in my friend group who would agree to that, particularly on a Friday night when most people have plans with friends. However, as you said, we are probably a group beyond the reach of most men we encounter. As for becoming a cat lady one day, that made me chuckle. It’s funny that guys feel that they can whip that out to try to knock a girl (any girl) down a few pegs, as though its some huge fear women have. I wonder what the male equivalent is? Maybe a bitter old man still frequenting men’s rights sites? I don’t know, but I wish you well on your coffee shop dates. If you are wanting to pursue the 4s and 5s, then I would think they will probably agree to that, and they will probably be fairly agreeable in general, I would assume (depending on your relative level, of course)
I searched the post – and no-where does FN mention a “ten minute coffee”, so I’m not sure where you’re getting that. Second, he mentions a number of days of the week – Friday, Tuesday, Sunday – and if one of those doesn’t suit, I’m sure two mature adults can figure out some other time – so I don’t know why you’re being nit-picky about “already having plans for Friday night.”
since thh perspective your exploring here really does not seem to consider her chemistry or physical attraction, only her attraction to a man’s energy and leadership abilities, then it seems irrelevant to the discussion anyway.
One of the rules of the manosphere – don’t ask a woman what she’s attracted to, because even she doesn’t know. :)
As for becoming a cat lady one day, that made me chuckle. It’s funny that guys feel that they can whip that out to try to knock a girl (any girl) down a few pegs, as though its some huge fear women have.
If it’s not – it should be. Your kind of “out of reach” attitude is rather common, as is the typical result it brings. A women pulls all kinds of attention in her 20’s, stays single to enjoy the ride with plans to get married in her 30s. The problem is, when she gets there, she doesn’t pull nearly the attention she used to, and as a result has to “settle” for attention from men she wouldn’t have had a coffee with in 20s. Or she can “hold out” for a guy that meets her requirements – which leads directly to the crazy cat lady meme.
And why is it a meme? Because it’s so common. But of course you’re such a special snowflake, this can’t possibly happen to you…..
Maybe a bitter old man still frequenting men’s rights sites?
Oh my, is this shaming language? You’ve cut me to the quick!
I’ll note you didn’t answer my question about what you bring to the relationship table, and how being with you would improve any man’s life. Why’s that?
If you are wanting to pursue the 4s and 5s, then I would think they will probably agree to that, and they will probably be fairly agreeable in general
For the men that this article is written, an agreeable 4 or 5 that’s happy to be with them would be fine. I’d submit that happiness together trumps a numeric rating any day.
Keep in mind that “numeric rating” can change over time. Anyone who marries to “bag a number” is not in the relationship for the right reason.
The reason I didn’t answer your question is because I feel absolutely no need or even inclination to explain myself to you, nor am I trying to be considerate a candidate for a relationship with you…. So why would I explain those things to you? If you are really so desperate to have that discussion, you can explain what YOU would bring to the table besides an argumentative nature and a bitter resentment towards female autonomy. Regarding the ten minute duration of the date, this is the time I would assume a coffee date would last. Granted, I have not been on one since high school, but I think there’s a reason for that. The coffee shops around my house are general lil pretty busy (I live in an urban area) and therefore pretty noisy. It would not be a place I would feel comfortable posting up in for an hour. On the other hand, a booth at a restaurant or a physical activity that takes time would give daters the opportunity to get to know each other. As I said, anytime I have agreed to a date, I am agreeing to spend at least an hour getting ready, possibly much more time if I get my nails or hair done professionally or buy a new outfit. So it is inefficient for me to invest that much time in someone who is only investing a much smaller amount of time in me. Additionally, If I do get those professional services done, then there will be a huge disparity in our respective financial investments. If I am investing hundreds of dollars and hours of my time, then a man should be prepared to invest a similar amount in both categories by taking me out to do something I enjoy that will allow us to actually talk. And lol at you trying to decry me for using “shaming language”- I’m just doing the same thing as you tried to with the cat lady threat. Always remember that two can play that game :)
@ Girlsmarts
If a coffee date for you only entails 10 minutes, you’re not the kind of girl most men here would enjoy being around. A coffee date, to me and I think most men that would be on this site, likely would last at least an hour, with a scheduled cleared up so that if the chemistry is good, he can bounce the coffee date to somewhere else. Free Northerner recommended walking, which can easily lead to such a situation. If you’re having a good time, and know the area, walk her to somewhere else. Make your first date a second date. It works wonders. A simple stroll to a pier is lovely. A walk through some woods or a park is fun. Randomly going into some art gallery where you can make fun of the art, take pictures of each other in awkward poses in front of it, and then go get a glass of wine. Hop in your truck and wander on some small dirt roads.
All easy, cheap, and can be done instantly if you know the area and are feeling the vibe. It’s all kind of ‘mid level’ game, where this is beginner. Yet the coffee shop date is a man’s bread and butter in today’s dating world.
And, if the chemistry is bad, at any point a man can find a natural ending and leaves.
I’ve had coffee dates that last until 2 am, and I’ve met women at a coffee shop and has sex with them that night. It’s not unheard of – though my conversion to Catholicism would rule out the sex from now on.
More than anything, your “They must spend money on me” attitude is off putting. Your desire for excitement and adventure gets in the way of who you are as a person, and the fact that you don’t want to know me or I know you would disqualify you from my interests. I also don’t get where you think you need to go through such effort. No man expects you to be dressed to the 9’s on a coffee date. A coffee date is to see who you are on a day to day basis; not see who you are when you’re going to a wedding. I wouldn’t expect any change of dress from normal attire to one, though would welcome any desire to impress. I’d be perfectly happy (and likely most pleased) by a modest, feminine dress that doesn’t distract me, but doesn’t hide your appeal either. Think sun dresses and floral prints. But then, I am in the game for a wife and mother to my children. That is my mission. Being able to demonstrate I can buy you new shoes and a purse every week is not. I put the energy into a coffee date as I would going out of the house any time after work – I shower because my work is physical, I might shave, I’ll put on jeans or chinos, a collared shirt, sports jacket, and walk out the door. I can do it in 15, though trend towards 30 if I have time, and don’t expect more from a woman than that. Honestly, if she simply came right from work I’d be ok with it, and it would tell me much of what I want to know about her.
“The coffee shops around my house are general lil pretty busy (I live in an urban area) and therefore pretty noisy”
I can only imagine you live in NYC or DC with this statement. Even when I lived in Chicago it was easy -EASY- to find a small little local roastary that has a coffee shop attached to it and/or somewhere with a park nearby. If anyone reading this is in those cities I’d recommend the Caribou coffee down by the Bean or New Wave in Logan Square. Both have some places around you can go to; though the caribou is my favorite, but I love the lakeside and meandering paths through Millennium park. You can easily wander in and out of statues, flower gardens, fountains, and the pier.
Well as I said, different people have different types, and while I would not be interested in a guy who took me on one, I’m sure there are girls who would be. I do not live in Chicago, and so I’ll have to take your word for it. To be honest, if someone asked me to go for coffee, I would expect that it was a friend situation and not a proper date. I would probably plan about a half hour into my schedule for it, and definitely feel free to make plans for the rest of the night. But I think it goes again to what you’re looking for. I prefer a man to be either alpha or beta- I.e. doing something really impressive or let me take the reins. I’m sorry if its rude to say, but a coffee date is not impressive, to anyone really. In the past, first dates such as bungee jumping, rock climbing, and attending an opera have set a dynamic where both sides enjoyed excitement and wanted to do fun things in the context of a relationship. And I think most women are emotional- we enjoy excitement and fun. In order for me to consider allowing a man into my very fulfilled life, and clearing away all other suitors for him, he’s definitely going to have to be able to provide that fun and excitement. To me, that is a hallmark of an alpha male and definitely puts me In a sexual mindset. On the other hand, hot chocolate at Starbucks reminds me of running errands with a friend or family member (decidedly less romantic)
@ Free Northerner
“Here’s some good types of physical contact to end a date with:”
Here’s one that I go with sometimes when I particularly am enjoying the date, and the date is still high energy despite it being a natural and right place to end it (such as you each have work the next day).
Go for a hug, then pick her up and twirl her around in the air.
It’s fun, will put you apart from most men, and remind her that you’re a man with some strength to you. If you’re really feeling it, you can end such a twirl with a kiss. I usually go for one on the cheek these days, but I’m dating and around more modest women than I have been previously.
I haven’t done this yet – but I think for the low energy but good ending I’d try taking her hand, twirling her around like a dance, and then kissing it. I’ve started taking regular swing dance lessons though, and have regularly had women twirl for me if they’re wearing something I find particularly nice. So this is building on that.
“Arrive on time, but do not arrive more than a minute or two early (wait in the car or around the corner if you have to). Arriving early makes you seem desperate and is rather awkward for her. ”
The big killer is any nervousness she won’t show up. This can occur even if you arrive right on time (or late). It’s worse if you’re early, but certainly not exclusive to that. Do anything that will take your mind off the date. Really, anything will work – though things that put you into an energy state you’re not normally in tend to work better from what I’ve seen (if you’re high energy, tone it down a bit. If you’re low energy, build it a bit). For most people of either type, having a playlist of some songs you love to sing to in your car as you drive to meet her, and then actually singing to them, is best. Also, it can double as a way to avoid changing radio stations while awkwardly looking for a good song if you get her back to your car or pick her up.
“To me, that is a hallmark of an alpha male and definitely puts me In a sexual mindset.”
….you do realize you’re commenting on a series of posts titled “The Omega’s Guide,” right?
You’re asking a fish to walk on land or fly through the air. Not only that, but you’re being cold hearted about it, with no consideration for the target audience it’s written for. Hell, I don’t even know how implementable my own advice is for these men, as I’ve been able to talk to women for years but still have issues and hang ups when it comes time to actually throwing caution to the wind.
The reason I didn’t answer your question is because I feel absolutely no need or even inclination to explain myself to you, nor am I trying to be considerate a candidate for a relationship with you…. So why would I explain those things to you?
Because when you said this
I look at a date as how much a guy is willing to invest in me, time and otherwise.
the natural question then is – what do you bring to the table that a man should be willing to make that kind of investment? So far all you’ve related is “I spend a lot of time and money getting ready.” While “fair’s fair” is certainly a reasonable expectation, I was wondering if you brought anything else to the table. Something that would support a permanent relationship.
Now, nobody’s going to force you to answer the question, however the lack of an answer tends to undermine your assertion that you’ve got the kind of character qualities a man would want around for the rest of his life.
If you are really so desperate to have that discussion,
Simple curiosity = desperation to have a discussion? I don’t know how I’m going to survive all this shaming language…
you can explain what YOU would bring to the table besides an argumentative nature and a bitter resentment towards female autonomy
And here ladies and gentlemen is a “turn the tables and try to put the questioner on the spot instead answering the question” tactic.. really quite lame.
I’m not the one who wrote about being “not impressed” on a coffee outing, nor have I asserted women need to spend excessive time and money getting ready for a date, so I really have nothing to justify.
And lol at you trying to decry me for using “shaming language”- I’m just doing the same thing as you tried to with the cat lady threat.
The difference is I haven’t called you names, while you’ve lofted a number of unfounded personal insults at me.
Finally, given your “apparent” financial resources and obvious superior status, why are you wasting time responding to a post about Omega men bettering themselves? Could it be that you’re not all that you’re claiming to be?
Well I don’t mean to be cold hearted about it. I actually really liked much of the advice. What I think is a huge deficit with the whole pua thing is its kind of treating the symptoms and not the underlying disease. I think if 99% of men could learn to identify and understand female emotion, then communication would be so much easier. Women really aren’t that intimidating as men perceive them. Most of the time when a man gets rejected it’s not because the woman is thinking what a complete loser. Often it’s just not the right fit and she didn’t feel emotionally understood by him. I think men look at having to understand and be in tune with a woman’s emotions as a form of slavery, but it doesn’t have to be that way. In my past relationships, I’ve made every effort to be in touch and understanding of men’s needs for logic, physical reassurance, and “manly” things such as investment in sports, preoccupation with mechanical things, and need to spend time with buddies. On the same token, men need to allow women to feel emotionally safe with them. Unfortunately, women HAVE to be in fear of men’s rage and negative emotions, because violence against women and rape is something that we have to protect ourselves from. I think it is so engrained in the female psyche that its not even concious. If men want to attract women, then learn to better yourself (I.e make yourself as attractive and successful as possible- same advice as one would give to a woman) and then be the rock that understands your woman and allows her to enter that feminine place with you. Allow her emotions to flourish and bloom by constantly considering them. In return, she should respond by thanking you with her sexuality and respect. That’s why I think a coffee date wouldn’t work for me- I love to have my emotions cherished and my favorite emotion to feel is excitement and fun. To me a coffee date doesn’t make me feel loved and cherished so why would I enter my feminine place if the man won’t enter the masculine place?
@leap
You’re asking a fish to walk on land or fly through the air. Not only that, but you’re being cold hearted about it, with no consideration for the target audience it’s written for.
One has to wonder why she’s posting here – particularly when she talks about such high-priced activities. Is she here to help Omega men get better, or to step on “lower status” men so she can feel superior or some such nonsense?
The original alpha male himself, John Wayne, once said “never apologize, never explain.” For that reason, I would never explain my value to anyone, much less a nameless dude in a chatroom who hasn’t demonstrated ANY value of his own. Again, if you would like to start out the discussion by explaining what YOU bring to the table I might be open to that. But I certainly won’t be “shamed” into explaining myself. Particularly not to you. (Btw what is your preoccupation with being “shamed”? Where does this come from?)
@girlsmarts:
Re: Shaming language
@girlsmarts:
Unfortunately, women HAVE to be in fear of men’s rage and negative emotions, because violence against women and rape is something that we have to protect ourselves from. I think it is so engrained in the female psyche that its not even concious.
I can “see” this concern from a random encounter on the street – but what about a man you’re in a relationship with? If you typify your intimate relationships with men with this kind of underlying fear, how can you hope to form a permanent bond with a guy?
And what about the shaming tactics used on women? some of which you’ve attempted to use today? Or do those not count?
Weren’t we talking about a first date situation? Before the first date, a woman has no way of knowing a man well enough to know what he is like when angry or his attitudes towards women. That is why a prolonged date is a good idea- so she can sniff that out.
Shaming tactics in general are wrong and should be identified for what they are – an attempt to change the subject, undermine the opponent with personal attacks, and avoid answering the hard questions they’re in response to.
Now, if I’ve used shaming tactics here, I’ll apologize and retract them as that wasn’t my intention.
Weren’t we talking about a first date situation?
That’s the underlying emphasis of the thread. You wrote “in my prior relationships”, which I inferred was about past experiences substantially past the first date, which prompted my question.
Actually I was responding to leap of a beta’s comments and was still referring to the point of this thread, the first date situation.
girlsmarts
I think if 99% of men could learn to identify and understand female emotion,
You don’t ask for much, do you? :)
Question – do you understand female emotion?
Last post for the night…
girlsmarts
If men want to attract women, then learn to better yourself (I.e make yourself as attractive and successful as possible- same advice as one would give to a woman) and then be the rock that understands your woman and allows her to enter that feminine place with you. Allow her emotions to flourish and bloom by constantly considering them.
I’d recommend you read this (female) blogger’s post on the subject – I’m thinking it’ll seem a bit radical to you:
http://verusconditio.wordpress.com/2013/06/06/whats-your-story/
” Often it’s just not the right fit and she didn’t feel emotionally understood by him.”
Eh. Not sure if I agree with this. I’d say more often she doesn’t feel attracted to him, and rationalizes it as other reasons. “Not feeling understood” is the same as “Not feeling any chemistry” is the same as “not attracted to”
Which is fine. The first thing men should learn is that most rejections have absolutely nothing to do with the man being rejected. There are so many whimsical things influencing the female thought process that no man can be expected to overcome them on a reliable basis until a relationship has formed.
” I love to have my emotions cherished and my favorite emotion to feel is excitement and fun.”
Which is why I’d classify you as a horrible choice for a marriage. You want constant romance, and most men want love. They’re not the same, and every single word you type tells me that you’re addicted to the former and have no understanding of the latter.
I disagree. I think this is why man marriages become sexless. One of man’s greatest fears is to be stuck in a sexless marriage, but one a females greatest fears is to be stuck in a boring life with no excitement or emotional satisfaction. Also, isn’t that “shaming” language you just used? Tsk tsk. You just violated red pill law. Additionally, not every time does rejection have “nothing to do with the guy”. In fact, I would say NONE of the time does it have nothing at all to do with the guy. If a guy who was really attractive and funny and intelligent and socially skilled came along, almost any girl would jump at the chance to be with him. Most of the time when a guy is rejected it’s because the woman does not feel he has the satisfactory characteristics that would be worth settling down for. Sometimes it’s because of what’s going on in her life, and sometimes it is due to the guy. But either way, there is someone out there for Everyone.
“Also, isn’t that “shaming” language you just used?”
No. It was a factual statement based on what you’ve shown here. I acknowledge it very well could be wrong. Just because you feel shame at a fact doesn’t mean that it’s shaming language. Shaming language would be if I started insulting you for it instead of politely responding.
“In fact, I would say NONE of the time does it have nothing at all to do with the guy.”
Meh.
“But either way, there is someone out there for Everyone.”
Hah. What a romantic, pretty lie.
But I do think that was your intention- to shame. And isn’t that the point of shaming language? To divert attention from the issue and attempt to make the person feel shame? If that’s not shaming language, then I suppose me saying “I would classify you as a sexually frustrated and bitter loser” is a statement of fact as well? Just trying to clarify here.
It was not my intention. My intention was to point out that you are the polar opposite of what men here will usually desire, and that I would consider you a poor choice for a marriage proposal. Luckily for you not only are there many men that don’t agree with me in the world on marriage material requirements in women, there are even more men that have no interest in marriage. You will always have a man that desires you, unless the social order as we currently know it collapses.
If I were you, i’d hope that doesn’t happen
” If that’s not shaming language, then I suppose me saying “I would classify you as a sexually frustrated and bitter loser” is a statement of fact as well? ”
If you can point to something that you can base that on, than no. It’s not shaming language, it’s an observation. You’ve said enough to give me an opinion based on what facts I have available, with acknowledgement that I could be wrong.
If you can point out something that shows I’m a sexually frustrated bitter loser, then feel free.
I will say that I do find it odd that you are unable to distinguish between observational information which leads to conclusions, and unfounded opinions.
Here you are:
“You’re asking a fish to walk on land or fly through the air. Not only that, but you’re being cold hearted about it, with no consideration for the target audience it’s written for. Hell, I don’t even know how implementable my own advice is for these men, as I’ve been able to talk to women for years but still have issues and hang ups when it comes time to actually throwing caution to the wind.”
This information tells me that not only do you identify with the beta males, but you still have “issues and hang ups” when it comes to your female interactions. Not exactly the attitude of an alpha male used to successful sexual interactions. You also talked kind of bitterly about women only judging men for appearance, all of which led me to conclude you were sexually frustrated. You seem like you have a real fear of rejection, which again does not sync up with my conception of a true alpha.
And I certainly hope and expect that the current social order won’t collapse! I love how it is right now and expect that it will continue. Also, I don’t know why you keep reiterating that you wouldn’t want to marry someone like me- did I ever give you an indication that I had an interest in it? I find it bizarre that you keep bringing it up- I don’t know if its supposed to be wounding or shaming but if you haven’t realized it by now, I already said that the beta males this site targets (yourself included) are not my cup of tea. And even if you were, the sheer level of male romantic interest I deal with on a daily basis makes it highly unlikely I would care about one anonymous Internet commentators opinion. No offense.
“you still have “issues and hang ups” when it comes to your female interactions”
Anyone that says they don’t have those is a liar. Doesn’t mean that my ‘hang ups’ mean I can’t talk to women, just that I’m pursuing different women now than I did before. The quick attraction I’ve built skills at, where I had sex first and then -might- start a relationship don’t work when you’re suddenly a devout, traditional Catholic. Nor are they my immediate priority, though what I’m doing with my life will get me to that goal. Instead, in the last two months I’ve changed careers, moved across the country, started partner dancing, picked up some other hobbies, and found a parish I feel at home within.
Meanwhile, I’m also flirting and beginning to learn what it is to court traditional Catholic 19 year old women as a 28 year old man, and doing decently at it. It’s very different than putting the moves on a woman at a club, a stranger at a coffee shop, or chat up a random person on the subway.
I don’t know if that’s totally true- I think many men don’t get intimidated by women. But I suppose that’s why you’re on a beta/omega website rather than alpha. As for your life changes…. Good for you? I don’t know if you want validation or why you are sharing the information….But I wish you well and sounds like you needed a life change.
@girlsmarts: To require excitement now and then is one thing: to require it on a first date gives one the impression you require it all the time, that just meeting a man on a first date by itself is not exciting at all because you meet zillions of men, therefore a man must give you something exciting to do on a first date to remember him by or he’s out. Simply being charming enough in conversation just doesn’t get you going, you can’t make the connection to him unless it’s accompanied by that exciting thing he’s supposed to plan for you. Perhaps you can see where this is going… it is good to have excitement in relationships, but no permanent relationship can be built on the emotion of excitement. If you’re not interested in a permanent relationship, then ok that’s fine, go get your excitement. But understand where you are at vs the point of this post.
I’m not as bad as the omegas this post is aimed at. I can get first dates. But they are intended to be low budget affairs lasting 1 to 2 hours with the purpose of finding out whether we have enough connection to take it further. I used to be a big spender on first dates just as you require and I almost never had positive results to show for it. Many, many men have had this experience, yet you crap all over that… what do you think that tells us about you?
Your best piece of advice is to go ahead and talk to girls. Then ask them them out. It doesn´t matter how well you do it, just do it. If you´re bold enough to make a move, you´re safely out of the beta loser zone and of the dreaded friendzone as well.
From the moment you start asking women out for dates, it´s only a matter of time and of numbers. Ask 100 girls out and you´ll get one date or two.
After you´ve built up enough confidence, ditch the “how was your week” line and try to come up with some other neutral opener or even a funny line. Be bold. Women like boldness, even if you goof up. There´s never a perfect moment and there´s never a perfect line. Most of the time with women it´s just a matter of being there at the right moment by chance and not being a total loser. Remember: be a man. They´ll know.
Leap et al,
No reason to debate with a girl that does not understand what men have to go through. Waste of time.
Nice to see the thread derailed by some cunt with absolutely zero to contribute to the actual topic, which is what bottom of the barrel men can do to improve their lives, everything else is irrelevant. Please fuck off and never return.
As a textbook omega virgin I simply don’t share the fear and resentment toward the “friend zone” or LJBFs. At 25 I never had a platonic female friend in my entire life, nor have I even had a friendly female acquaintance. I think this is common for true bona-fide omegas, as women find our very presence so repulsive they can’t stand to even be our friends. If I ever got into an LJBF I would know I had managed to crawl a few rungs up the ladder from my current position. Of course its “beta” but its still a lot better than being omega. I actually want to have female friends now, simply so I can learn to not be as painfully awkward around them and be able to actually to hold a conversation. What I want is to not see the creeped out look of repulsion in the eyes of any woman I come into contact with, I can see what a strain it is for female cashiers to tolerate my presence for the short time it takes a complete a transaction.
But its more than that, I simply crave the company of women, the female presence is something I need in my life, if that can only come from female friends so be it. Those of you who would condemn me for simply do not know the true meaning of desperation. Yep, made up my mind, definitely want female friends. Personally I look at beta males with absolute fucking envy.
What I meant to say was those of you who would condemn my desire for female friends simply do not know the meaning of deprivation
One no effort, no brainer, measure to improve how you get on with chicks:
Theanine: I take it for the nootropic effects, about 150mg once a day. For about three hours after I take it, girls are much more likely to flirt with me or hit on me. I don’t notice any change in my own behavior, though presumably they are responding to some change in my behavior.
Theanine reduces social anxiety, thus, for those of us subject to social anxiety, theanine is the easy way to act more alpha as well as more sociable.
I tend to scare people, male and female alike, if I look at them steadily with a neutral expression, if I simply forget to put other people at their ease, which I tend to do, for, being afraid of other people, I forget how easily I frighten people. I don’t know if you will get as much social improvement out of theanine as I do, but I get a very large improvement.
Girlsmarts:
You wrote several times up thread that you expect a man to invest in you from the beginning with expensive and/or “exciting” dates.
No man should take that advice. A girl on a first date is not worth and does not deserve any more investment than the cost of a tall coffee from Starbucks or an ice cream cone or maybe a beer; simply because she has not shown that she’s earned it or is worth it.
Every man considering a possible relationship or anything beyond a second date with a girl needs to make that girl qualify herself HARD.
Ask yourself about her:
What does she bring to the table of a possible relationship?
Why should I invest anything in her?
Why should I commit anything to her?
What value could she add to my life?
What has she done to earn my investment and commitment?
Stay away from girls like girlsmarts. They are a waste of time and money. Leave them to the alphas, who will pump and dump them.
You have no obligation to provide “excitement” on a first date, particularly when you are an omega rising from the ashes of your omegatude.
You have no obligation to qualify yourself to a girl on a first date.
At this point in your journey, you have no obligation to qualify yourself to anyone but yourself.
Girlsmarts:
I’ve seen your story play out many, many times.
You demand immediate investment, commitment and excitement on a first date.
You’ll agree to dates with hot, attractive alphas. You’ll go on that bungee jump and rock climb. You’ll get your heart rate and respiration rate a little accelerated. You’ll get a little afraid. Or you’ll go to the opera. You’ll get emotional.
You’ll confuse your fear/emotional state for attraction to that guy sitting next to you.
You’ll end up in bed with him, maybe not the first night, but you will by date three.
And then he’ll move on after a few days or weeks.
He will ply his next conquest just as he did with you.
And you’ll be standing there thinking “Why doesn’t he call/text?”
For him you were just another notch, just another fun ride.
For you? The “strong independent” girl who wants “excitement”?
Look at what your demand for “excitement” got you.
Punked. Pwned. Pumped and dumped.
Heh.
For the men reading this post:
FN did a great job on this. I would add a couple of things.
1. Game everyone. Chat up everyone. Start just chit chatting with the store clerk, the bank teller, the coworker. Male and female, doesn’t matter. Be friendly.
2. Smile less. Just have a pleasant but not “resting asshole” face.
3. As for the friendzone: the minute you start suspecting you’ve been friendzoned, cut her off. She doesn’t have to say it; you just have to suspect it. And “cut her off” means you’re not friends. No contact, no talking to her, no doing anything for her, no responding to her calls/texts.
In the past, first dates such as bungee jumping, rock climbing, and attending an opera have set a dynamic where both sides enjoyed excitement and wanted to do fun things in the context of a relationship.
Opera is pretty danged expensive for a first date. Maybe it wouldn’t be bad if you had planned to go anyway…and she bought her own ticket.
Rock climbing and bungee jumping aren’t bad ideas though. I’ve no idea of the cost, but they allow you to focus on something else rather than the inevitable awkward silences. Later in a relationship, conversation will be about 80% filler consisting of inside jokes, teasing, references to previous events, etc, but on a first date you don’t have that luxury.
I’m not sure about all the friend zone stuff though. In the past, marrying someone who you weren’t friends with already would be strange to say the least, since there was no “dating”, a custom the purpose of which I am unsure. The best option for omegas may be to become friends with girls, get to know them that way, then let a relationship develop from there. This also skips the whole awkward “dating” period where you are trying to figure out who this person actually is.
Omega As Fuck,
Was your kind inivtation to depart meant for me? In nany case, there´s nothing wrong in hanging around women as long as it´s on your terms, not theirs. A man is nobody´s pet, a man is not there to entertain women. However a man can choose to share some quality time with women, only if he has no romantic interest in any of them. Use them before they use you: use them for intel, inside information, to practice your negs and friendly banter. Use them to get close to the girls you want to seduce.
You can even friendzone them before they do. I think Heartiste once did a post on this very subject. They are then at your mercy. I repeat, never let a woman use you. If you don´t respect yourself, no woman will.
Matt October 29th, 2013 at 11:02
The best option for omegas may be to become friends with girls, get to know them that way, then let a relationship develop from there.
Recon them, but don’t “become their friends” unless they’re clearly “friends-only” material, or you’ve gone out a few times and it’s clear friends is the best it’ll be. Otherwise, if you start out as “friends first”, the most likely result is you’ll stay there.
@ Matt
Rock climbing is a decent option for me because I climb anyway so I wouldn’t have to rent gear except shoes for her, but otherwise it may run you $30-40+ if you don’t have a membership someplace because you need to rent equipment and shoes for the both of you.
I’d say ice skating or roller skating or batting cages or mini golf or such activities are cheaper than rock climbing for your average dude.
Did this ever blow up. I’ve considered deleting girlsmart, but I think what she says if far too good an example of what to avoid to remove.
@ girlsmart: Assuming you aren’t a troll, you seem like a very unpleasant and spoiled women. Hopefully, for your own sake, you get over your self-entitled narcissism or you are in for one hell of a painful future relationship-wise once your beauty fades.
@ Leap and NorthernObserver: You both said good things from what I read, but I think you both put far too much effort into trying to help someone who is clearly content in her entitled ways. She does not deserve that much attention.
@ Omega: I understand. I never had much female companionship, and it sucked, but I never rally had a great yearning for female friends; they mostly seemed like such trite, emotional beings.
If you are pursuing female friendship for female friendships sake, I encourage that.. I only discourage female friendship if there is an ulterior motive.
I hope my guide is helping you.
@ redneck: People keep recommending nootropics. I’m hesitant. I’ve never like using mind-altering chemicals; I try to avoid even Tylenol as much as possible, but everybody here keeps recommending them, I’m slowly being swayed.
@ BB: Yup: one step at time.
@ deti: Good advice, but I’d recommend smiling more at first, at least for omegas. Our surly, dour expressions can be off-putting.
@ Matt; As I wrote to Omega above, female friends are great; it’s only when you’re friends with a women while pining away for her that I discourage.
@Fn – I felt like a debate, and it was fun to pull the skirts of her debating tactics over her head and show them to her. :)
@ ANO
She probably didn’t see them, but at least all of the other men who read this post will.
@DS – when I called her on her “shaming language” – that seemed to make an impression.
Who knows, maybe this encounter’ll divert her from her current destination of being the trophy wife a rich man who’ll marry her for her looks, send her on expensive vacations to keep the tingles flowing, trot her out once in a while at parties and such for appearances sakes.
@omega as f –
I feel for you my friend. I am not in the same situation as you but I can understand where you are at to some extent. I recommend reading the post on here entitled “be the kind of man that would have the life you want.”
My additional advice would be – think long term, act short term.
Life is hard if you want it to be good. Keep working on improving yourself with immediate action. The results will take time but they will happen.
I have no idea what makes you believe you are an omega but if it is your looks you can improve them with style and hygiene. Get some good clothes, get your teeth fixed, shave the neckbeard whatever the issue is it can be fixed. If you are skinny then lift. If you are fat then lose the weight. If you have a crappy job then find a career. If you are socially awkward keep learning conversational techniques etc.
It all takes time and effort. Think long term, act short term. Sometimes exercising sucks but it is still good. Every job I have ever had sucks and I don’t think I will ever get rich packing a Stihl 441 through the mountains and valleys of the Oregon woods but it pays a good wage (plus chicks in the northwest dig a fit logger) and allows me to live in my off time.
Control what you can control. Improve yourself everywhere you can improve. Do hard things. That is what a man does. And a good woman (hard to find but they do exist) will be attracted to a good man.
Orcs can’t be Paladins, dah!
I’d like to respond to the idea that women should be taken on ‘exciting’ first dates. Free Northerner is right. Don’t bother. Way back when I was young and first dating I had a guy take me white water rafting. He was probably an omega or low delta. Not great looking, older, maybe late 20’s, introverted.
I had a blast white water rafting. It was a great time. However, that did not translate into any attraction to the guy. We didn’t click. We didn’t hit it off. The excitement of white water rafting did not translate into excitement for the guy. Nor did I think, ‘wow, this guy is willing to spend some money/do exciting things, he must be great dating/marriage material!’ It didn’t occur to me how much white water rafting costs. It didn’t make him seem exciting.
Take Free Northerner’s advice: get to know a girl for a bit. See if you hit it off in casual dates. If you do, then you can go do exciting/expensive things together.
And whatever you do: stay far away from entitled, selfish, females like girlsmart. Only mandumbs would date them.