In my last post, I gave my thoughts on long-term relationships and came down against them. I started writing the piece last week, then left it for a few days, and because of this it became somewhat disorganized, and I couldn’t get it quite right before I posted it. Since posting and reading some of the responses, I realized that this was because I was only writing about the end conclusions of my reflections, while glossing over the premises.
So, I’m going to expand a bit on the post here. The purpose of the post was not to dismiss long-term relationships, in and of themselves. It was to dismiss purposelessness and mediocrity in relationships, which are exemplified by the trends of increased shacking-up and LTR’s.
I’ve noted on here before that a man should have a mission to live for (vaguely hypocritical, in that I am kinda lacking a mission myself, but this blog is somewhat aspirational). Relationships with women should be an augmentation in your life to best help you reach your purpose in life.
Therefore, when pursuing relationships, you should have a clear goal of what you want out of the relationship and how it will help you achieve your mission. Plan out what you want.
If your goal is a family and a committed relationship, then find the right girl, seal the deal, and get married. Do it purposefully; do it right. Don’t fall into a long-term relationship half accidently, then move in together and/or get married after a few years because that’s how things go. Plan it out.
If your goal is hedonism and avoiding commitment, do it right; be a player, start gaming, and have the wildest ride you can. Don’t limit your hedonism to a “safe”, mediocre LTR.
My problem with LTR’s is that they are not succeeding at serving any particular mission all that well. It is a mediocre half-solution that seems to simply try to fill a gap in life without any particular greater purpose behind it.
Essentially go big or go home.
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Smoothreentry also commented on this piece.
I would accept most of his qualifications, with the following caveats.
He is right that the sex for the PUA is not about fulfillment, it’s about hedonism; pleasure. It will often leave a man unfulfilled, as anybody who’s been reading Roosh these last few months can easily see for themselves. It looks like he’s about to try something new, but I doubt he will find the fulfilment he seeks in this new plan.
For fulfillment though, the LTR would not be an answer either. It may feel somewhat more fulfilling in the moment, but tt builds nothing of long-term value. Only the stability of a marriage provides the leverage necessary to build a meaningful home and family. A meaningful life can be built outside of sexual relationships, but in that case it will be apart from sexual relationships, which will be a distraction or at best a simple sideshow.
In today’s modern sexual marketplace, the LTR as a transitional phase towards that of wife is almost always necessary. It should not be the end goal though. As well, it should be carefully watched that these transitions do not “just happen”. You should be transitioning purposefully with a plan. If you start walking without a map you may find yourself in a place you don’t want to be and don’t know how to leave.
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Sarah’s Daughter asked:
I understand you’re saying (as a Christian) you aren’t advocating for one situation or another. I wonder, however, if you would agree that it is equivalent to an analysis on which abortion clinic/procedure is the most appropriate for the non Christian.
It would be equivalent to saying that an abortion by a doctor would be less painful than doing it yourself with a vacuum cleaner. Which I would not hesitate to say, as it is simple reasoned conclusion that does nothing to further an abortion.
I would avoid, say, actively researching which clinics were the best price, or what doctor had the best bedside manner, as these are all actively helping further someone along the path to an abortion. In the same vein, I wouldn’t actively give out tips on which club was the best to find easy chicks or who’s the best value hooker in the area, as these are actively furthering someone along the path to sexual sin.
It can be a fine line at times, I know, but I think there’s a difference between a simple reasoned observation and an analysis which pushes a person farther towards sin.
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As a final note: The primary purpose of this blog is for me to work out my thoughts on life in relation to finding my purpose in life. I try to keep the blog either analytical or positive and aspirational. I try to with Christian charity. I do try to avoid being overly negative, bitter, or unChristian. Despite this, I am but fallen man, my thoughts are not always Christian or charitable.
I’m naturally cynical and pessimistic. In addition, I am struggling with being unsuccessful in finding a wife while still trying to maintain Christian sexual standards. For a man in his late 20’s, this can, at times, lead to loneliness and sexual frustration. Finally, I have always been a rather pro-civilization type and seeing the civilization I love crumbling around me can be frustrating.
The combination of these factors can sometimes lead to bitterness and unrighteous anger welling-up in my soul, to my discredit, which may occasionally creep into this blog. On top of this, the temptations of nihilistic hedonism are very enticing; thoughts of simply embracing apathy and going poolside while it all burns are not uncommon. This flirtation with nihilism may also creep into my writings.
So, forgive me if occasionally I give into temptation and be somewhat unChristian in word or tone.
I do enjoy your writing. It’s honest and readable.
My crisis of faith ended in me losing my faith altogether. For me it’s now biomechanics all the way down. However, I can’t recommend it as a path to follow. If you can find some other philosophical exit point, it’s probably better for you.
I empathise with your goal of finding a mission in life. I picked hedonism for a while, but you can’t make it your life’s purpose. In the end you become a rat endlessly pressing the lever for pellets.
The gradual change in Roosh’s life philosophy has been more interesting than his game tips (which are good, but they don’t change too much).
Currently, my goals are to build cool AI systems, build a company, and work to ensure the economic security of my family (I’m single, no kids, but have a large extended family that I’m close to).
I don’t know if any of those goals resonate with you. I surmise that in general a fulfilling life mission is one that has value beyond your own happiness. I sometimes think that to some degree fulfillment and happiness work against each other.
Thanks for the clarification, and the honesty about your inner feelings. I’ve just finished writing up a post about needing to be more honest in my writing myself.
An LTR is something I need to “try on” over the course of months, with moving in together being a test to see if we are truly compatible, before I’d entertain any kind of thoughts of taking it further.
I think relationships are no different than anything else in life – they are either progressing or regressing. If they don’t have a clear direction, they will stagnate, and eventually fall apart. So I think you’re correct in what you say.
“I’m naturally cynical and pessimistic. In addition, I am struggling with being unsuccessful in finding a wife while still trying to maintain Christian sexual standards. For a man in his late 20′s, this can, at times, lead to loneliness and sexual frustration. Finally, I have always been a rather pro-civilization type and seeing the civilization I love crumbling around me can be frustrating.”
I am in the same boat as you. These are trying times, and it isn’t easy maintaining your composure as the world falls apart around you.
I appreciate your clarifying this. I understand it. And I do respect what you are doing here with your writing.
We get emails and phone calls asking for advice and are always quick to ask if they are Christians. I have no idea how to advise the non Christian simply because I know that denial of the Truth will not alleviate the consequences of sin. RLB and I were equally yoked, we both believed in Jesus Christ but neither of us lived a Christian moral standard until after we were married. And, consequences there were!
What we’ve found is most people seeking (in our culture) have grown up with some Christian foundation. We’ve been blessed to help several turn back to the Truth, repent and move forward.
Though I know his message has been met with much resistance, RLB, though a heathen at the time, made it his mission to find a wife and pursued that for four years. And though he doesn’t advocate to not disqualify a woman like me, he’s on the other side of 18 years of making that risky decision right. I had a two week qualification window for him. Since the first woman he wanted to marry was a virgin and was caught in bed with another guy, that was no longer essential to him. He literally quit pursuing his career aspirations until he had a marriage. Not all men find this necessary. However, for him, he could focus on his mission much easier having his relationship goals met. He really identified with what Napoleon Hill had to say about sex transmutation in “Think and Grow Rich.”
“It was to dismiss purposelessness and mediocrity in relationships, which are exemplified by the trends of increased shacking-up and LTR’s.”
— What country are you writing from? Here in the US, Americans don’t do “purpose” very well, in case you haven’t noticed.
“If your goal is a family and a committed relationship, then find the right girl, seal the deal, and get married. Do it purposefully; do it right. Don’t fall into a long-term relationship half accidently, then move in together and/or get married after a few years because that’s how things go. Plan it out.
If your goal is hedonism and avoiding commitment, do it right; be a player, start gaming, and have the wildest ride you can. Don’t limit your hedonism to a “safe”, mediocre LTR.
My problem with LTR’s is that they are not succeeding at serving any particular mission all that well. It is a mediocre half-solution that seems to simply try to fill a gap in life without any particular greater purpose behind it.”
— I have to disagree. LTRs are logical and serve a purpose for those of us who are not extroverts who just luuuuurve to be “out there” meeting all kinds of people, socializing and picking them (and their diseases) up.
Most of us have busy lives, between work, education, chores/errands and family. We just don’t have the time it takes to “spin plates”, nor the sexual energy, and quite frankly, nor the interest in being with or around that many people who are not all that interesting or appealing.
LTRs and live-in relationships give us access to regular sex with someone we actually like to be around.
That being said, my comment on your other piece was that I’m “done with them” myself.
The reason is – I don’t want kids and many LTRs or live-in relationships are a bad mime of marriage and family.
There’s an assumption that it is or *should be* exclusively monogamist, which I do not subscribe to.
Go Big or Go Home. The answer to your confused question is right there within the title of the post itself.
Many, perhaps most, people do not want to “go big”. They want to go home. LTRs provide comfort, companionship and affection for the vast majority of people who are not egregious extroverts who just luuuuurve being “out there” and “turned on” all the time.
Most of us lead lives busy with work, education, chores/errands and family. We simply do not have time to be on the prowl for new partners 24/7, nor the sexual energy, and quite frankly, the interest in people.
Coming home in the evening to SOMEONE WE ACTUALLY LIKE, settling in with him/her for the night and having regular access to sex is something we do enjoy.
Let’s also not forget the diseases and multifarious health problems we are avoiding by not having one night stands, spinning plates or maintaining “multiple concurrent relationships aka the new age harem”.
Since you are a marriage and family minded Christian man I am sure you would feel more confident about the health of your future children if their potential mother spent her 20s in an LTR rather than riding the cock carousel.
1 LTR also speaks to her ability to form a pair bond. A sort of pre-selection during the screening process if you will.
As a woman given 2 suitors with all else being equal but their sexual histories; 1 having had 1 or 2 LTRs during his 20s and the other having had a series of random hook-ups, STRs, and “multiple concurrent relationships” – the obvious choice for the health of my future children (and myself) would lie in the former suitor, not the latter.
I would also question the latter’s ability to form a pair bond.
@student: I was a hair’s breadth away from losing my faith a couple of times and embracing Lord Bio-mechanics. I still occasionally wonder if it was the right decision. Those are good goals, best of luck with them.
@yousowould: absolutely.
@donalgraeme: It can be a hard road at times, but Jesus never promised happiness.
@SD: The mission to find a wife sounds like a it could be a useful endeavor, but I could see problems with focusing primarily on acquiring a relationship. I don’t think I’d absolutely rule out ‘a woman like you’, but a history comes with many problems of which I would be very wary.
@Tia: I write from Canada.
If a half-hearted relationship is someone’s goal, then best of luck to them, but I think most would eventually find them unfulfilling, then realize the consequences and waste in the end. I see you are done with them.
As for my future wife: I would find a purposeless sexual LTR and riding the carousal equally unappealing; both demonstrate the same lack of Christian chastity and poor decision-making.
Besides, a single pair bond that lasts many years may be as bad as a few hook-ups for a future pair-bond. It’s one thing to be compared to a pump’n’dump; another entirely to be compared to a long-term lover.
“As for my future wife: I would find a purposeless sexual LTR and riding the carousal equally unappealing”
The thing is FreeNortherner, I’ll bet most people in LTRs, especially live-in LTRs, are expecting them to turn into marriage at some point. That is usually how it goes. There is the expectation of marriage not only from at least one, but usually both of the partners, but from their surrounding friends and families as well. LIve-in LTRs often function as a pre-marriage trial period in which the couple is testing what it would be like to live for the rest of the their lives with each other.
And being that most people still want kids, they are hoping the person they are currently living with, or in an LTR with, will in fact be the future parent of their kids.
By the time a couple gets to the “we’re in an LTR” stage of their dating relationship, its already serious and you can bet that one, if not both, of them is thinking seriously hard about marrying.
Now, it may not “work out”. They may reach a conclusion that after 2 or 3 or 4 years together that they are not compatible for the lifelong long haul. But you can be sure that was their intended purpose at some point.
And that right there is why I’m personally “done” with LTRs. I don’t want kids. I don’t think marriage is necessary unless you want or have kids.
The men I’ve been in LTRs with have all wanted a family eventually, so they give LTRs just as much weight as marriage because they are hoping an LTR will lead to marriage and kids.
They kind of interpret my being in an LTR as sending out “mixed signals” even though I made it clear from the beginning that I do not want kids and will not ever have them. They thought they could “change my mind”.
I rather enjoy your writing as well. In fact, I’d like to thank you for the reminder that sometimes it’s a good idea to write something out and sit on it for a day or two and come back to it. That’s excellent advice.
Speaking truths, as you would have others do unto you, is, err, was a foundation of Christianity; now the Church is in bed with some dubious degenerates, and to satisfy their new partners, they’ve gotten away from that. What is important is that YOU stay true to yourself, and if that includes believing in traditional relationships between men and women, the ones that have worked for centuries, then stay true to that. The world is full of miserable people who changed for the sake of being accepted.
I’m currently in an LTR with a girl who has zero marriage potential. Like Tia its mostly because it gives me moderate levels of sex, companionship, and security with low investment. I’m afraid to make a high investment in a woman because I’m not sure I can hold her in marriage. The no-fault world seems like one out of my control. Whereas I like to put my investment into things I can control (career, mission, hobbies, etc).
LTR’s seem like a way to “satiate” sexual desires that get in the way of those other things without spending all day in clubs. Add in some other fringe benefits (someone who goes on vacation with you and takes care of you when sick) and it seems like a good deal.
I get what you are saying though. It’s taken a few of these LTRs to realize that they damage your LTR circuits. They burn them out. I have no doubt my eventual marriage, should I find someone, will be deadened by these LTRs. See my comment in the other post for details.