Solipsism in Action

Slate (always a good place for blog material) had an article on a comment from Quora asking: Why Are Women So Negative About the “Pickup Artist” Community?

Quora has numerous other responses which, along with the comments on this particular answer at both Slate and Quora, vary between pro- and anti-game and which will mostly be familiar to those with experience in the Manosphere. I’m mostly only going to comment on this one because Slate published it, it’s the most upvoted on Quora, and it’s amazing how hard the hamster is running.

I read The Game: Penetrating the Secret Society of Pickup Artists (which I still think is a really interesting book) and ended up meeting a lot of people who were in the pick-up artist community (not a goal—it just happened).

I even ended up helping out with one of their weekend seminars, to be a “female test dummy,” essentially. Far from the stereotype of sleazy guys who want one-night stands, 24 of the 25 guys in the class were just awkward, nerdy guys who just wanted a girlfriend (the 25th wanted to bring home a girl for a threesome with his girlfriend). But that’s not the instruction of these classes. The classes are about getting laid, not getting a girlfriend.

This was my first big hint that something was wrong. There was a mismatch. They were taking guys who wanted girlfriends and teaching them how to pick up girls in bars.

She’s correct that’s exactly what game generally does (Dalrock, Athol, et al. being the minority), but in her self-absorption, she doesn’t even question why there’s a mismatch.

The reason there is a mismatch is simple: there is nothing else.

If you are an awkward, nerdy male, the only people willing and able to teach you practical advice for attracting women are the PUAs. I’ve checked. There is simply no one outside the manosphere teaching men how to meet a pleasant, moderately pretty girl for a stable long-term relationship.

I’ve read a number of Christian books and articles on dating, but they all assume a woman is attracted to you. They are either discussions of what kind of dating is appropriate and exhortations against sin or man up articles on how to avoid sex in relationships, how to avoid leading women on, and how to be firm in your intentions. There is almost no practical advice on how to actually attract a girl in first place so that the other advice has any relevance.

(For any Christian manospherians reading this, here’s a great book idea: write a guide to help awkward Christian guys attract a Christian wife. Market it in the Christian culture industry and you’d make a killing. I’d write it, but I’m not qualified at this point.)

Going outside the Christian stuff, everywhere else you look the socially awkward male is given the same advice: be yourself and be a nice guy, she’ll come… eventually.

Guess what?

We already do that: it doesn’t work. If it did work, we wouldn’t be looking for advice.

For women (and church leaders and others who may care): if you do not want awkward guys going to PUA’s for advice on attracting women, offer a viable alternative.

The only reason I started taking guys like Roissy or Roosh even remotely seriously was because they were the first people I found anywhere who gave enough of a shit to give some practical, useful advice. I haven’t adopted either game or playerhood, but I have tried some of their more morally neutral advice and it has been useful. (I’m now more influenced by the Athol/Dalrock approach).

How royally screwed up is it that self-proclaimed assholes like Roissy and Mentu are the only ones honest and selfless enough to give practical advice to the awkward guy looking for companionship (even if they mock us while they do it)?

The second thing she misses is this: yes, we want a relationship, but, failing that, getting laid is a nice second place (religious convictions aside) for most men.

If you don’t want awkward men to settle for the second prize, make it possible for them to attain the first.

How many relationships do you know of that started in bars? Do you know any? If you want a girlfriend, go sign up for an online dating site. Start dating! Statistically speaking, bars don’t work.

Solopsism starts here at its finest and continues throughout. (We’ll ignore the fact that a lot of relationships nowadays start in bars). Dating sites may be good advice for women, but, statistically speaking, online dating sites are a horrible option for men, particularly for socially awkward men.

Online dating work for most females (the lower quintile is in much the same position as most men); they can revel in the attention of dozens of men for little cost and choose their pick with minimal effort, but for your average male, online dating is a vicious, slogging grind of inanity, rejection, and flaking with with minimal chance of success.

The problem here is that touching can be flirty, but it can also be really creepy when the touching isn’t natural. And when you’re telling an awkward, nerdy guy who has no idea how to flirt “OK, now, touch a girl here,” it’s almost always creepy. (Personally, I don’t like random guys at bars touching me. It makes me really uncomfortable.)

In other words, women like being touched by guys they are attracted to, but keep those awkward nerds away from them.

And she laments awkward nerds trying to learn how to attract women.

And then you’re telling the guy to criticize the girl, which is just plain mean.

That criticism would probably be more effective if the neg didn’t work. It’s simple really:

If women don’t want men to use negs and “be mean”, they shouldn’t respond positively to it.

And then, when the girl isn’t interested, the guy is now being told, “Oh, she’s just trying to play games with you.” He doesn’t back off. Eww.

Guess what? The awkward nerd has no idea how to tell if the girl is interested or not. That’s why he’s at one of these workshops in the first place. To learn to gauge interest so that he doesn’t get the “eww” response.

And all of this is ridiculous because sometimes, the girl is out of your league or at least just isn’t interested. I’m 5-foot-9, and I’m just not going to go home with a guy who is 5-foot-3, goes by the nickname “Snake” (seriously?!?), or is overweight, pimply, or won’t just answer a direct question about what he does for a living.

Remember to know your place you creepy nerd. Don’t you dare try to improve yourself or better your chances with women.

With this kind of harsh judgmentalism from women (especially a woman pretending she cares about guys), is it really a surprise the awkward go to PUAs for advice?

Also, there’s some internal contradiction here. If the women is already rejecting the guy because she thinks she’s out of his league, what could he possibly lose for being “creepy”? She’ll reject him either way; at least if he hits on her there’s a small chance of success.

Once upon a time, this guy might have been a perfectly normal but nerdy guy, who could have dated online, met someone nice, got married, and been perfectly happy.

Once upon a time this guy could have waited until his mid-30′s to meet a hard-used, bitter women trying for her hail mary attempt at a  baby and who will later divorce him. Now he’s being twisted so much he may no longer be available as a post-wall, last-ditch relationship.

PUA instruction turns awkward, nerdy guys who just want a girlfriend into creepy guys who harass and insult women. And that’s not OK!

How dare they steal away my beta-orbiters and my fall-back plan for when I leave the carousel.

PUA instruction teaches guys these mechanical ways of interacting with women that don’t really work and fails to recognize that every woman is different. Some women just won’t go home with you. Sorry. Maybe she’s out of your league. Or maybe she’s just not interested in you. Or maybe she just doesn’t go home with random dudes from bars.

If it didn’t work, it wouldn’t be near as popular as it is.

The things is, game works for enough men with enough women that men will continue to use it. The specifics don’t matter; the general trends of it working for many men on many women is all that is necessary for game to continue.

The words coming out of a woman’s mouth? It’s not all a game.You can have actual conversations with us.

If the awkward male could have an actual conversation with women leading to a relationship, he wouldn’t be looking for advice from PUA’s.

But he can’t, so he does.

When I say “What do you do for a living?” it’s because I actually care. Because I’m looking for someone to build a relationship with, and someone with no career goals is not a good match for me. Answer the question.

Hurry up and let me judge you so I can get back to those alpha males.

Conversation is not all a giant game.

For the awkward, nerdy male it is. It has to be.

He doesn’t naturally know how to have a conversation, that’s the entire reason we call him awkward.

For him to learn how to have a conversation, he has to treat it like a game with rules, because it’s the only way he will understand it and have a conversation.

When I’m not interested, it’s because I’m not interested. Not because I’m putting some sort of girl test in front of you.

And yet, you, like most women, will judge him on his awkwardness anyway.

So that’s why I’m against it. Because, beyond just giving men the courage to approach women, the instruction is harmful to the guys.

Yes, that’s why you are opposed to it.

Are adult males not capable of deciding whether it is harmful to them on their own?

Some of my friends who were involved in the community got out of it OK, but they were probably more normally adjusted to start with. Another friend, well, he got his taste of one night stands and “can’t understand the point of girlfriend.” And other guys I’ve met are so uncomfortable to be around that, well, we never really became friends.

Translation:

Some of her beta orbiters have remained beta orbiters. Other beta orbiters have succeeded with game and are enjoying their success enough that they no longer pine after fantasies. And other beta orbiters are no longer willing to be beta orbiters.

As I said, the hamster was strong with this one. She has absolutely no sympathy for or understanding of the plight of your average socially awkward male. This is why those opposed to game are going to continue to lose men to game; they refuse to consider why awkward young men are turning to game in the first.

If you don’t like awkward young men turning to game: offer a viable alternative.

Socially awkward males will take it if available. All you have to do is understand their frustrations and give them something that helps them ease them.

****

The best response I saw (from Quora):

I’m just as disappointed in women for having low standards. When I can be a nerd and talk about something intelligent and be nice without socially neutering myself because I choose not to talk loud and put other people down and be polite, then the world won’t need pickup bootcamps.

That’s exactly it. If your average beta male could find a half-decent girl to settle down with in his early twenties, there would be no demand for game. There would be PUA’s (probably under a different name), as there have always been and always will be guys who want nothing more than some casual sex, but there would be no demand for game.

You look at a lot of guy on the manosphere, such as Mentu, had met a decent girl to marry while young, they would never have learned game and would never have needed to.

****

Another interesting answer at Quora was this.

He describes game as cheating.That’s an interesting way to think of it.

If you think of the sexual marketplace as a game, then game is simply violating the traditional rules to win. Nothing overly profound, but an interesting way to look at it.

36 comments

  1. I think you are slightly off in your conclusion on her motives. When women hear about game they worry that some beta male is going to trick them into sex by acting alpha.

    It’s the exact same thing with exercise. Women want men for whom everything comes naturally, as that is the best indicator of gene quality.

    Or, in the words of a currently popular song they blast at annoying levels at my gym: “We don’t even have to try, it’s always a good time.”

  2. Superb discussion and analysis of the article and issues involved.

    How dare they steal away my beta-orbiters and my fall-back plan for when I leave the carousel.

    Haha gold.

  3. We’ve got a sick dating culture. Average young guys fail, and fail hard due to indoctrination. Be a good guy, the right girl will appear…

    The girls can’t even see these guys, also due to indoctrination. Their eyes see only the apex fantasy of “having it all.” Reality won’t sink in until it’s too late. The game is rigged in their favor, and most of them don’t even get much advantage from it.

    Hmm. I ought to float the idea of a Red Pill dating workshop for young people to my pastor. It’s unwise not to arm our people with truth.

  4. Good for the nerds! They should ignore creatures like this! Roissy, like Herod Agrippa in Claudius The God, is a scoundrel with a heart of gold who cares more about the needy guys then this hag. She is mad because the “nerds” learn game and cheat the system and clean up. This is like casinos getting mad at the guys who know how to count cards. I hope many beta and omega men read this woman and it convinces them to pursue game not to find a girlfriend but to get laid. No man should end up a beta provider to a used up misandrist.

  5. Even if you don’t feel qualified to write it, you are probably more qualified than most to do so. I’m sure you could get advice from various places, where you don’t feel sufficiently ready to write. Perhaps ask for guest chapters?

    We’ll be waiting a while if we want a Christian Roosh.

    I’d buy a book of Christian game from you, even though the church has lost its appeal to me.

  6. Reblogged this on M3 and commented:
    Out-fucking-standing on the whole post! And i second all of his remarks about the utter absurdity it is for men using online dating looking for a ‘good girl’.

    Friday Link Love goes to Free Northerner FTW.

  7. What’s really going on here is that average men are learning some Game. Some are doing better with women. Some who aren’t are going their own way and are refusing to serve as beta orbiters, water-carriers and emotional tampons for women.

    People like this Gayle woman are seeing it, they know what it portends for women in general, and they don’t like it. They’re worried about losing their “friend” orbiters who carry their books, do their trig homework, change their tires, lift their heavy boxes, buy their dinners, and serve as shoulders to cry on when Alpha McGorgeous pumps and dumps them (for the 15th time).

    They’re worried about having no men to marry when they alight from the carousel at age 30 or 32 and their bio-clocks are roaring in their ears like freight trains.

  8. Very good post. A few observations…

    1. I think it would actually be good for awkward men to approach women like this Gayle woman and get rejected — early, often, and even cruelly. They need to take the worst rejections women can dish out, so that they will learn that they are really no big deal. Once awkward men get numb to the sting of rejection, they will be able to approach who they want, without fear — and then they will start to realize their potential.

    2. The whole idea of “leagues” is used by women to get non-alpha men to self-police. It also selects against the polite and the timid — two groups of men that women have no desire or use for. This may help women (or
    maybe not, I don’t know) but it does no good for men. Once a guy starts thinking, “I have no shot with this girl here, but I might be able to get that one over there”, he’s already lost. No woman wants a man who doubts
    himself, or who thinks he’s “not good enough” to go for what he wants.

    3. If women think negging is “mean” then why do they drop their panties so quickly for men who are good at it?

    4. It’s funny how people, particularly women and feminized men, will talk about sex and relationships as an “either/or” — as if it’s possible for a guy to get a girlfriend without being able to seduce a woman. If a girl doesn’t want to sleep with a guy, she certainly won’t want a relationship with him either.

  9. @Ivan: I wouldn’t disagree with that. She likely has many motivations, some of which she herself doesn’t realize.

    @3MM: Thanks.

    @Steffen: “The game is rigged in their favor, and most of them don’t even get much advantage from it.” That’s a good observation; I like it.

    @Stephen: Absolutely. Roissy may act the jerk, but at some level he cares. I much prefer that to those who undermine others while mouthing pretty words.

    @Tim: Thanks. You’re right, it would be a while for a Christian Roosh. You’d either need an reformed bad boy or a Christian who intentionally used game to create a successful marriage. I could probably write it in theory, but given my lack of a wife or long-term girlfriend it would not have much authority.

    @deti: It must be nerve-wracking realizing that your life plans are being ruined by a bunch of guys on the internet.

    @Retrenched:

    1) Absolutely. I think it was Badger who said that outcome independence was a necessity for attracting women, and the best way to gain outcome independence is to become enured to rejection.
    2) I think leagues is a valid concept. On some level, some people are just not going to have a chance with others because the disparity of their SMV. Where the concept o leagues goes wrong is where it is rigidly enforced, when it is taken as too determinative, or when people are mistaken about where their league is.
    3) Patriationary actually just had a post on how women do not understand their own sex drives.
    http://patriactionary.wordpress.com/2012/09/28/a-gedankenexperiment-to-disprove-the-existence-of-the-rationalization-hamster/
    4) Most people do not seem to be able to separate the categories of sexual attraction and compatibility. Both are necessary for a relationship.

  10. She can’t get past the context of the class or her instant impression of the attendees.

    What looks like “creepy unwanted touching” and “insults” when scrawled on a whiteboard for a classroom of awkward guys is the spontaneous, arousing, intriguing stuff that “just happens” when she’s on a date or having a good experience when meeting a dude in a bar.

    Women can only see their feelings about the outcome, they have little understanding or appreciation of the process that brought everything to that point.

  11. For women (and church leaders and others who may care): if you do not want awkward guys going to PUA’s for advice on attracting women, offer a viable alternative.

    No kidding – that’s exactly what needs to happen. But women give each other horrible advice – “Your unicorn is out there!” No, he isn’t. But the whole culture – the media, her friends, every book and magazine and website and movie aimed at young women – says that he is. And he isn’t you, oh middle-management guy, quoth her hamster.

  12. Deti,
    I also think a lot of them know in their heart of hamsters that they can’t get through life without men. That if they ever wanted to own a home, they’d need a man to fix the shit that broke in it. That their birth control is paid for by men. That those heavy lifting jobs are done by men. That their abortions are performed by male medical practitioners as are most of their high end surgical practices. That they can’t even move from one apartment to the next as they roller coaster through career grrrrrl status and cock carousel without men to pack up and move their shit.

    Because once a man stops giving it away for free. Once he repeats Mentu’s line of “No booty, no duty” or one of the lines you repeated there – “No ass, no sass” or “No lay, no pay”…. Well, their world becomes both unsustainable financially and they lose every literal thing that they built their happiness on in our hedonistic society.

    And thus, the hamster knows fear. And it trembles.

  13. If you think of the sexual marketplace as a game, then game is simply violating the traditional rules to win.

    When the game is rigged, there are no rules.

  14. “And all of this is ridiculous because sometimes, the girl is out of your league or at least just isn’t interested. I’m 5-foot-9, and I’m just not going to go home with a guy who is 5-foot-3, goes by the nickname “Snake” (seriously?!?), or is overweight, pimply, or won’t just answer a direct question about what he does for a living.”

    Can’t believe I missed this before. The implication obviously is:

    “But I will go home with a guy who is 6 foot 3, drives a BMW, is in good shape, has the body type I like, and has a handsome face with clear skin.”

  15. @ Frigid North

    “What looks like “creepy unwanted touching” and “insults” when scrawled on a whiteboard for a classroom of awkward guys is the spontaneous, arousing, intriguing stuff that “just happens” when she’s on a date or having a good experience when meeting a dude in a bar.”

    Chances are, she’s probably slept with at least one formerly awkward guy who ran solid game on her and she doesn’t even know it…

  16. Retrenched:

    “she’s probably slept with at least one formerly awkward guy who ran solid game on her and she doesn’t even know it…”

    I’ve known a lot of girls, Slept with some, talked to and gotten to know many, many more. All but one are nonvirgins. And none of them understand attraction or how their own attraction triggers work.

    They simply FEEL, and will have sex if it feels right or if it feels like something they want to do at that moment. My experience on this cuts across every conceivable demographic – race, age, SES, education.

    Every single woman I’ve ever talked to has had a ONS, a fling, a time she threw caution to the wind and said “F**k it, I’m gonna sex this guy ’cause I want to. I don’t care if he pumps and dumps me; I just want him NOW.”

  17. Free Northerner,
    As a rule, I agree with you about online dating—the gender ratios are seriously skewed favoring women. But I will share one significant exception—one relevant in particular for Christian men shopping for an appropriate wife.
    My experience with Eharmony was that I got issued a lot more matches than any of the women that I was matched with. This indicates that most likely there are (at least in the Pacific NW) more women on that site than men. My guess is that the reason is that you have to fill in a very very long profile and the whole site is set up in a woman-centric fashion.
    So, some years back I interviewed (i.e. framed the meet&greets or dates in a manner where I was the interviewer with the power to bind or loose) a couple of dozen candidates from which I selected my wife. I’ve written on this topic a fair bit on my own blog, but I honestly don’t think it would require a 128 page (or more likely as it seems these days, a 256 page) book to cover.

  18. @ Frigid North & Retrenched: Yup: Some women like the sausage (hehe), but can’t stand the slaughtering floor.

    @ SSM: It’s nice to know at least some women care about the plight of the beta.

    @ Jehu: I tried E-Harmony once, but there were no matches for my type in about 200 miles; it said that occurred for about 20% of people (or so, I don’t remember the exact number). I would assume it’s much different from the free sites due to it’s barriers to entry. I’ve tried one Christian paid site, but it’s not really much better than the free sites other than a more narrow focus.

  19. Free Northerner,
    I suppose it was nice of them to let you know immediately so as to not take your money. I don’t think any of the other Christian-oriented sites have the scale necessary to give you the odds you want or the female:male ratio to give you much structural alpha.

  20. @Jehu

    You must be such a catch. I tried e-Harmony when I lived in the States. I tried it hard. I got a date out of every 20 interactions or so (the process of a conversation was long and full of steps and it often derailed before the date). When I got a date, it was with a unattractive woman with entitlement and insane expectations. They were thirty-something and .waiting for Prince Charming I was handsome at the time but no rich. I was dumped after two or three dates.

  21. The guys who want an LTR or a marriage need to be especially game-aware. Hookups can happen because you were the right guy in the right place at the right time. Anything longer-term requires you to sustain the attraction which started the relationship, which can be a lot more work.

    The other thing is that women expect all relationships to start as casual, so men can shoot themselves in the foot quite easily by escalating emotionally too fast.

  22. Imnobody,
    What part of the nation were you in? In the Pacific NW a common comment I got from the women I considered was that they were issued a LOT less matches than any of the guys they got matched with.

  23. @ Jehu: I do like that they didn’t charge, but it was somewhat disappointing after it was hyped to me (especially by my mother).

    @ Sppos: Learning women expected casual, was a big problem for me. I had always been told women were looking for commitment, and I’m commitment-oriented, so I went in too fast.

  24. Free Northerner,
    I’m not privy to their models, but my experience does tend to support the claim that there are several clusters of womenfolk that tend to be on Eharmony. One of the biggest, for instance, are somewhat Churchy nurses and schoolteachers. Another (and Eharmony was kind enough to match me with 3 or 4 from this set) are women STEM workers typically in their late 20s. Given I was in my mid 30s, this was where I wanted to shop, as it were.
    I suspect that if you’re not well matched with at least one of those clusters they’ll probably tell you they can’t match you all that well.

  25. The late-20′s might be the reason. I was looking for a gal in her early 20′s; I would suspect they would be less likely to use a marriage-oriented site like E-Harmony than older women.

  26. Yeah I don’t think there are many women in the 20-25 bracket on Eharmony, or at least they don’t match them with 35 year olds. Most of the women they matched me with were 26-30. Women looking for marriage from 18-25 likely have their own organic matchmaking networks (e.g., homeschoolers, who seem to marry a lot from 18-20).

  27. M3 sent me here. Spoos in August talked about hook ups happening because the man’s in the right place at the right time and he’s got it right. I’ve almost been that guy a who got the hook up a dew times and I wasn’t even trying. I stopped the girl every time because she was in no condition to fool around and because I didn’t want to bother with it.

    LTRs do indeed require Game knowledge: it’s because of the Manosphere and Game that I learned to screen for a quality girl, find her, and date her. I’m no Roosh, but the tenets of Game work and my relationship’s rocking and rolling because of what I learned.

Leave a Reply